Re: 'not-set' and 'not violated' in the context of prohibition [formal-semantics]

The state diagram reminds me of https://www.inf.ed.ac.uk/teaching/courses/seoc/2005_2006/resources/statecharts.pdf

 

 

I was playing with plantUML (I understand it can be used in GitHub)

 

@startuml

scale 350 width

[*] --> Active

 

state Active {

  [*] --> fulfilled

  [*] --> violated

}

@enduml

 

We must agree if we’re using initial states as blank (which I think is the norm) or named nodes.

 

 

 

___________________________________

Joshua Cornejo

marketdata

embed open standards 

across your supply chain

 

From: Sridhar Krishnamurthy <ksridhar@amagi.com>
Date: Thursday 2 May 2024 at 12:21
To: Joshua Cornejo <josh@marketdata.md>
Cc: <public-odrl@w3.org>
Subject: Re: 'not-set' and 'not violated' in the context of prohibition [formal-semantics]
Resent-From: <public-odrl@w3.org>
Resent-Date: Thu, 02 May 2024 11:20:51 +0000

 

Yes sir. I read it too. By looking at the code and documentation i found out there are presets that are used to give out result of an evaluation and they are 'pre-configured' in https://github.com/nitmws/odrl-wprofile-evaltest1/blob/master/testdata/testconfig.yml.

I also had a look at https://github.com/mosaicrown/policy-engine.

I am looking/thinking to see if a odrl parser/evaluator can be written in a recursive descent manner.

 

Sir, I have a request. The state diagram that you shared earlier nicely explained the concept. Can this be added in at least the non-normative portions of the https://w3c.github.io/odrl/formal-semantics/ specification ? The state diagram reminds me of https://www.inf.ed.ac.uk/teaching/courses/seoc/2005_2006/resources/statecharts.pdf

 

regards  

 

On Thu, May 2, 2024 at 12:22 AM Joshua Cornejo <josh@marketdata.md> wrote:

Sridhar:

 

I’ve had a chance to read the GitHub documentation and want to highlight:

 

Is a function for evaluation available? (Note: this project does not provide constraint evaluation functions! - but it outlines where to add code for this purpose.)

 

Regards,

 

___________________________________

Joshua Cornejo

marketdata

embed open standards 

across your supply chain

 

From: Sridhar Krishnamurthy <ksridhar@amagi.com>
Date: Wednesday 1 May 2024 at 15:56
To: Joshua Cornejo <josh@marketdata.md>
Cc: <public-odrl@w3.org>
Subject: Re: 'not-set' and 'not violated' in the context of prohibition [formal-semantics]
Resent-From: <public-odrl@w3.org>
Resent-Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 14:56:48 +0000

 

thank you

 

On Wed, May 1, 2024 at 8:24 PM Joshua Cornejo <josh@marketdata.md> wrote:

No idea if there are other evaluators. I think that github has an ‘app’ for quick testing - https://odrlapi.appspot.com

 

I  also think these evaluations are partial (for example the :target or :assignee are just an example.com URI). 

 

If you are testing just a single policy document, those partial evaluators should be easy to implement.

 

Regards,

___________________________________

Joshua Cornejo

marketdata

embed open standards 

across your supply chain

 

From: Sridhar Krishnamurthy <ksridhar@amagi.com>
Date: Wednesday 1 May 2024 at 15:28
To: Joshua Cornejo <josh@marketdata.md>
Cc: <public-odrl@w3.org>
Subject: Re: 'not-set' and 'not violated' in the context of prohibition [formal-semantics]
Resent-From: <public-odrl@w3.org>
Resent-Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 14:28:06 +0000

 

Respected Sir,

 

I was only taking a point of view from the state machine perspective and not from a programming perspective

as to what is the deontic state when the activation state is inactive.

 

What you say makes sense. Will ponder on this further.

 

I am also reading the specification https://w3c.github.io/odrl/formal-semantics/ as a precursor to 

understanding the evaluator developed at https://github.com/nitmws/odrl-wprofile-evaltest1 although

this evaluator predates the specification.

 

Sir would you happen to know if there is an 'current/ongoing' evaluator more in tune with

the terms used in https://w3c.github.io/odrl/formal-semantics/ as compared to those mentioned

at https://github.com/nitmws/odrl-wprofile-evaltest1/tree/master/evaluator

 

regards 

 

 

 

 

On Wed, May 1, 2024 at 6:58 PM Joshua Cornejo <josh@marketdata.md> wrote:

If you are thinking about variables in a programming language – you probably have to decide what is the initial state, but I would think the aState = inactive / dState = notSet is that starting point. Once you move to an active state the deontic state, you need to calculate the state of the rule (and trigger a change of state from “not set” to either of the other 2). And you don’t ‘care’ about the dState if aState = inactive (value is semantically irrelevant).

 

But as a state machine, you only exist if your state is ‘the current state’. You can’t check for the deontic state if the activation state = inactive, similar if you are in any deontic state (because that state machine is ‘local’), that means that your activation state = active.

 

(any deeper and we’re going into philosophy).

 

Regards,

___________________________________

Joshua Cornejo

marketdata

embed open standards 

across your supply chain

 

From: Sridhar Krishnamurthy <ksridhar@amagi.com>
Date: Wednesday 1 May 2024 at 14:14
To: Joshua Cornejo <josh@marketdata.md>, <public-odrl@w3.org>
Subject: Re: 'not-set' and 'not violated' in the context of prohibition [formal-semantics]

 

Respected Sir,

 

Does this mean that

 

(a) the 'Deontic State' (green) of 'not-set' is the same as 'not violated' ?

(b) the 'Deontic State' (green) is 'undefined' when the 'Activation State' is 'inactive' ?

 

regards

 

 

 

On Wed, May 1, 2024 at 6:28 PM Joshua Cornejo <josh@marketdata.md> wrote:

·         From that section 2:
Permission, Prohibition, Obligation (duty at the root level), Condition (duty not at the root level) have a property called activation state, which can take the values of active or inactive.
Prohibition, Obligation, and Condition have a property called deontic state, which can take the values of not-set, or violated, or fulfilled. They can become violated or fulfilled only when they are active.
 

I have interpreted as 2 state machines that would look as follows (matching grey and green as above):

 

 

___________________________________

Joshua Cornejo

marketdata

embed open standards 

across your supply chain

 

From: Sridhar Krishnamurthy <ksridhar@amagi.com>
Date: Wednesday 1 May 2024 at 13:46
To: <public-odrl@w3.org>
Subject: 'not-set' and 'not violated' in the context of prohibition [formal-semantics]
Resent-From: <public-odrl@w3.org>
Resent-Date: Wed, 01 May 2024 12:46:05 +0000

 

With respect to the deontic state of a Prohibition we see the following:

 

[Ref-A] Section https://w3c.github.io/odrl/formal-semantics/#section2 mentions 'not-set'.

 

[Ref-B] Section https://w3c.github.io/odrl/formal-semantics/#sematics-of-prohibition mentions 'not violated'.

 

Given this background the following questions arise:

 

(a) In general (for a Obligation and a Prohibition)

 

    If the 'Activation State' --> 'inactive' is the 

           'Deontic State' --> 'not-set' ?

    Because as per [Ref-A] we see the statement

    "...They can become violated or fulfilled only when they are active...."

 

(b) In the context of a Prohibition

 

    If the 'Activation State' --> 'active' then there are

    just two possibilities for the 'Deontic State'. These are

    'not violated' and 'violated' as per [Ref-B].

    Is 'not violated' the default value of the 'Deontic State'

    because 'violated' is set only if an action is performed

    (which is Prohibited).

 

(c) With respect to (a) and (b) can we conclude that in the context of

    Prohibition 'not-set' is not the same as 'not violated' as there are

    three distinct values of the 'Deontic State' namely 'not-set', 

    'not violated' and 'violated'. The former when the 'Activation State'

    is 'inactive' and the latter two when the 'Activation State' is

    'active'.

 

Forgive me if these are naive questions.

regards

 

 

 

    

 

 

 


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DISCLAIMER: The contents of this email, including any attachments that it may contain, are privileged and confidential information, and may also constitute as proprietary, and are intended solely for the use of the addressee(s). If you are not the intended recipient, please notify the sender by email and delete the original message. Unintended recipients are strictly prohibited from copying, disclosing, and/or distributing such contents in any manner or form. Opinions, conclusions, and other information in this transmission that do not relate to the official business of Amagi, including all its affiliates, shall be understood as neither given nor endorsed by it. Any statements made herein that are tantamount to contractual obligations, promises, claims or commitments shall not be binding on the Company unless expressly and specifically stated as otherwise, or followed by written confirmation, by an authorized signatory of the Company.