- From: Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org>
- Date: Mon, 04 Mar 2013 18:25:08 +0100
- To: "public-multilingualweb-lt@w3.org" <public-multilingualweb-lt@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <5134D8F4.9090707@w3.org>
Hi all,
today's minutes are at
www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-minutes.html
and below as text.
Best,
Felix
[1]W3C
[1] http://www.w3.org/
- DRAFT -
MLW-LT WG
04 Mar 2013
[2]Agenda
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Mar/0039.html
See also: [3]IRC log
[3] http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-irc
Attendees
Present
fsasaki, omstefanov, tadej, Karl, daveLewis, philr,
shaunm, Yves, Giuseppe, DomJones, Marcis, Ankit,
mdelolmo, Milan, Des, Pedro, leroy, chriLi
Regrets
Pablo, David
Chair
felix
Scribe
tadej
Contents
* [4]Topics
1. [5]roll call
2. [6]High level usage scenarios publication
3. [7]XLIFF+ITS namespace discussion, other mapping
topics
4. [8]Locale filter exclusion
5. [9]HTML and ITS discussion
6. [10]Testing - good news
7. [11]Test suite errors, please fix if you see your name
8. [12]clarify character encoding behaviour see latest
thread
9. [13]ontology
10. [14]hanlding of defaults in test suite
11. [15]https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/l
t/track/actions/open
12. [16]aob
* [17]Summary of Action Items
__________________________________________________________
High level usage scenarios publication
XLIFF+ITS namespace discussion, other mapping topics
<fsasaki>
[18]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
lt/2013Mar/0034.html
[18] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Mar/0034.html
fsasaki: Felix had action item to check whether W3C can host
the namespace; alternative was to use the itsx namespace
... David mention that itsx was used by other applications, so
it would need to be a different namespace
daveL: we encountered similar things in provenance, ITS
ontology;
... having the extension in a separately addressable file made
sense for us
<fsasaki> [19]http://itstool.org/extensions/
[19] http://itstool.org/extensions/
<fsasaki> <itst:match selector="/mal:page"/>
fsasaki: itst is currently used by the ITS tools,
... People should be able to create their own extension of the
namespace, with the ability to have stand-alone files for the
namespaces
daveL: can we have sub-spaces there? /rdf, etc?
fsasaki: yes, since it's an URI
<daveL>
[20]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Pro
venance_Best_Practice#Extraction
[20] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Provenance_Best_Practice#Extraction
daveL: here's an example of how we used extensions in our
provenance RDF example
... we want to be able to use it both in RDF use cases, as well
as XLIFF
fsasaki: Why would the namespace for the RDF be different as
for XLIFF?
daveL: we could manage them separately, not sure if any other
difference
... in the RDF one, we have 'domain', but it wouldn't map to an
existing ITS XML attribute
fsasaki: would you make use of 'domain' data type when
validating RDF?
daveL: yes, you could actually do this within RDF
fsasaki: RDF tools usually don't resolve the XSD to enforce
data types
... would people like an XSD on the namespace URI location?
daveL: David should know more on that
Locale filter exclusion
<fsasaki>
[21]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
lt/2013Feb/0320.html
[21] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0320.html
<fsasaki> <p its-locale-filter-list="*-CA">Legal notice for
Canada</p>
fsasaki: we want an ability for some content to be excluded;
yves proposed using the ! operator for 'excluding' a particular
locale
<fsasaki> <p its-locale-filter-list="!*-CA">Legal notice for
all locales except Canada</p>
shaunm: we had that functionality, but no-one wanted it
fsasaki: we dropped it in August, and we didn't have a clear
record of discussion beyond private e-mails
Yves_: i hadn't followed up on that topic
... but it is still useful functionality
fsasaki: would that result into additional changes in the test
suite?
Yves_: current test cases only include locales, we'd need to
add a new test case for excluding
shaunm: it's a fairly big change for a last call
fsasaki: we shouldn't avoid doing that, we don't have to make a
final decision today
Des: I support the ! exclusion proposal
fsasaki: we have 5 implementers for locale filter
<omstefanov> an excluding test case should show excluding of
more than 1 case, such would be realistic. The example Yves
brought is so "real world" it's hard to believe we missed it.
fsasaki: do people have a preference for the ! over a special
attribute?
<omstefanov> what would the attribute look like, and would it
be IN ADDITION TO positive selections?
shaunm: attribute also isn't problematic
<Ankit> either way (! or keyword) wors for us (DCU)
Yves_: personally think ! is easier, but not against a specific
attribute
<clieske> BCP47 does not provide an impression for "inverse"?
<fsasaki> no
<clieske> Should it? :-)
clieske: this is a suggestion for providing feedback to BCP47
people for including an exclusion syntax
<scribe> ACTION: felix to check with I18N group about
exclamation mark to signify an exclusion [recorded in
[22]http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action01]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-454 - Check with I18N group about
exclamation mark to signify an exclusion [on Felix Sasaki - due
2013-03-11].
<scribe> ACTION: Yves to create examples of locale filters with
exclusion (using exclamation marks) [recorded in
[23]http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action03]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-455 - Create examples of locale
filters with exclusion (using exclamation marks) [on Yves
Savourel - due 2013-03-11].
HTML and ITS discussion
<fsasaki>
[24]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
lt/2013Feb/0298.html
[24] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0298.html
Yves_: some html elements have counterintuitive behaviour on
inheritance, for instance <del> shouldn't be translatable,
while its sub-elements can have different defaults
... we shouldn't make things like this compicated for the user
kfritsche: it makes sense to implement this as defaults, not as
defaults
shaunm: we could make the same argument for every format
... it becomes a problem on how we apply information
fsasaki: in practice, many tools have HTML filters, which
describe defaults different to the defaults in the
format-agnostic ITS spec
... for instance, the translate in HTML will have different
defaults than its:translate
<fsasaki>
[25]https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21085
[25] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21085
<fsasaki> above is the HTML5 bug
Yves_: shaun has a point, but in this case we write against the
HTML5 spec, which we refer to specifically. it might make sense
to have different defaults for that particular format
fsasaki: another argument might be the workflows of
Linguaserve, where XHTML is used in the XML processing chain,
as well as HTML processing chains, and having them aligned can
be beneficial
... the question is also for the xml-only implementers: will
they be required to implement these defaults
Pedro: yes, we have this use case
fsasaki: we need some more feedback on this on mailing list.
let's keep the topic on the agenda and see how the discussion
moves forward
Testing - good news
<fsasaki>
[26]http://htmlpreview.github.com/?https://raw.github.com/finnl
e/ITS-2.0-Testsuite/master/its2.0/testSuiteDashboard.html#confo
rmance-classes-overview
[26] http://htmlpreview.github.com/?https://raw.github.com/finnle/ITS-2.0-Testsuite/master/its2.0/testSuiteDashboard.html#conformance-classes-overview
<fsasaki>
[27]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
lt-tests/2013Mar/0000.html
[27] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-tests/2013Mar/0000.html
<fsasaki> [28]http://www.w3.org/2012/09/mlw-lt-charter.html
[28] http://www.w3.org/2012/09/mlw-lt-charter.html
fsasaki: here's the test suite status
fsasaki: our charter says that we do testing from March to
October, and we're mostly done. We can take time to finalize
some features, and I'm confident we won't need much time for
testing
philr: one topic from last week was discussing which way should
the stand-off references point?
fsasaki: I made the experiment from inverting the pointer
direction, from outside to inside might be more efficient
<scribe> ACTION: phil to follow up on stand-off pointer
direction (quality, provenance) [recorded in
[29]http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot> Created ACTION-456 - Follow up on stand-off pointer
direction (quality, provenance) [on Phil Ritchie - due
2013-03-11].
Test suite errors, please fix if you see your name
fsasaki: some errors aren't really errors, for instance RDFa
attributes
... the output will likely influence the output of the test
suite
... so having an update in time will be helpful
clarify character encoding behaviour see latest thread
swalter: the discussion split in several threads. we made some
specification on how a program should behave when not
supporting an encoding given constraints, there wasn't any
consensus on what should be done with the storageSize
constraint
... it usually denotes the size of the database field, and it's
not a MUST. how can we have a MUST, if it's not required
behavior
fsasaki: if we feel that a MUST is not necessary, we can reject
the comment
shaunm: what should the program do if it doesn't understand the
character encoding?
swalter: the program uses the encoding to verify the
constraint, but it's not obligatory to validate that
... As an user of ITS, you could feel unsafe whether you give a
tool a constraint which it will not obey
... especially when there are consumers that may care
... however, we normally don't constrain consumers
Yves_: we could have a note that would describe the expected
behaviour (described with lowercase should, must)
... and not worry about conformance at our level
swalter: there could be a distinction between what consumers or
producers conform to
fsasaki: should we push for such a note?
<fsasaki>
[30]https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/i
ssues/106
[30] https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/106
<scribe> ACTION: Stephan Walter to propose a note for the
character encoding behaviour [I18N-ISSUE-246] [recorded in
[31]http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action08]
ontology
<fsasaki> no further update, see discussion above
hanlding of defaults in test suite
<fsasaki>
[32]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
lt/2013Mar/0045.html
[32] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Mar/0045.html
<fsasaki>
[33]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
lt/2013Mar/0044.html
[33] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Mar/0044.html
<fsasaki>
[34]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-
lt/2013Mar/0046.html
[34] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Mar/0046.html
kfritsche: the defaults in the storage encoding is a value, but
the understanding of the default was that it was integrated
later; we propose the behavior that would set it to utf-8 if no
other value was present
Yves_: it's different behaviour than ordinary defaults
[35]https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/actions
/open
[35] https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/actions/open
<fsasaki> action-390?
<trackbot> ACTION-390 -- Tadej Štajner to check tan examples
and test suite with regards to presence of annotatorsRef -- due
2013-01-30 -- OPEN
<trackbot>
[36]http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/ac
tions/390
[36] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/actions/390
<fsasaki> tadej: can be closed, done, changes are in github
pull requeste
<fsasaki> close action-390
<trackbot> Closed ACTION-390 Check tan examples and test suite
with regards to presence of annotatorsRef.
<fsasaki> tadej: did the check, all examples are valid
aob
fsasaki: anyone at CeBIT?
... we'll have some demos for ITS, thanks to Cocomore
... is the current schedule of calls ok for all?
... right now, we still don't have a right call time that works
for everyone. let's try again after the review
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: felix to check with I18N group about exclamation
mark to signify an exclusion [recorded in
[37]http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action01]
[NEW] ACTION: phil to follow up on stand-off pointer direction
(quality, provenance) [recorded in
[38]http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: Stephan Walter to propose a note for the
character encoding behaviour [I18N-ISSUE-246] [recorded in
[39]http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action08]
[NEW] ACTION: Yves to create examples of locale filters with
exclusion (using exclamation marks) [recorded in
[40]http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-minutes.html#action03]
[End of minutes]
__________________________________________________________
Minutes formatted by David Booth's [41]scribe.perl version
1.137 ([42]CVS log)
$Date: 2013-03-04 17:22:55 $
__________________________________________________________
[41] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
[42] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/
Scribe.perl diagnostic output
[Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.137 of Date: 2012/09/20 20:19:01
Check for newer version at [43]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/
scribe/
[43] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/
Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)
Succeeded: s/local/locale/
Succeeded: s/whileits/while its/
Succeeded: s/counterintutitive/counterintuitive/
Succeeded: s/rules/defaults, not as rules/
Succeeded: s/rules/defaults/
Succeeded: s/informaiton/information/
Succeeded: s/bugs/bug/
Found Scribe: tbd
Found Scribe: tadej
Inferring ScribeNick: tadej
Scribes: tbd, tadej
Present: fsasaki omstefanov tadej Karl daveLewis philr shaunm Yves Giuse
ppe DomJones Marcis Ankit mdelolmo Milan Des Pedro leroy chriLi
Regrets: Pablo
Agenda: [44]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-l
t/2013Mar/0039.html
Got date from IRC log name: 04 Mar 2013
Guessing minutes URL: [45]http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-minutes.ht
ml
People with action items: felix phil philr stephan swalter walter yves y
ves_
[44] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Mar/0039.html
[45] http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-minutes.html
End of [46]scribe.perl diagnostic output]
[46] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
Received on Monday, 4 March 2013 17:25:40 UTC