[Minutes] MLW-LT call 2013-03-04

Hi all,

today's minutes are at
and below as text.




       [1] http://www.w3.org/

                                - DRAFT -

                                MLW-LT WG

04 Mar 2013


       [2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Mar/0039.html

    See also: [3]IRC log

       [3] http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-irc


           fsasaki, omstefanov, tadej, Karl, daveLewis, philr,
           shaunm, Yves, Giuseppe, DomJones, Marcis, Ankit,
           mdelolmo, Milan, Des, Pedro, leroy, chriLi

           Pablo, David




      * [4]Topics
          1. [5]roll call
          2. [6]High level usage scenarios publication
          3. [7]XLIFF+ITS namespace discussion, other mapping
          4. [8]Locale filter exclusion
          5. [9]HTML and ITS discussion
          6. [10]Testing - good news
          7. [11]Test suite errors, please fix if you see your name
          8. [12]clarify character encoding behaviour see latest
          9. [13]ontology
         10. [14]hanlding of defaults in test suite
         11. [15]https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/l
         12. [16]aob
      * [17]Summary of Action Items

High level usage scenarios publication

XLIFF+ITS namespace discussion, other mapping topics


      [18] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Mar/0034.html

    fsasaki: Felix had action item to check whether W3C can host
    the namespace; alternative was to use the itsx namespace
    ... David mention that itsx was used by other applications, so
    it would need to be a different namespace

    daveL: we encountered similar things in provenance, ITS
    ... having the extension in a separately addressable file made
    sense for us

    <fsasaki> [19]http://itstool.org/extensions/

      [19] http://itstool.org/extensions/

    <fsasaki> <itst:match selector="/mal:page"/>

    fsasaki: itst is currently used by the ITS tools,
    ... People should be able to create their own extension of the
    namespace, with the ability to have stand-alone files for the

    daveL: can we have sub-spaces there? /rdf, etc?

    fsasaki: yes, since it's an URI


      [20] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/wiki/Provenance_Best_Practice#Extraction

    daveL: here's an example of how we used extensions in our
    provenance RDF example
    ... we want to be able to use it both in RDF use cases, as well
    as XLIFF

    fsasaki: Why would the namespace for the RDF be different as
    for XLIFF?

    daveL: we could manage them separately, not sure if any other
    ... in the RDF one, we have 'domain', but it wouldn't map to an
    existing ITS XML attribute

    fsasaki: would you make use of 'domain' data type when
    validating RDF?

    daveL: yes, you could actually do this within RDF

    fsasaki: RDF tools usually don't resolve the XSD to enforce
    data types
    ... would people like an XSD on the namespace URI location?

    daveL: David should know more on that

Locale filter exclusion


      [21] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0320.html

    <fsasaki> <p its-locale-filter-list="*-CA">Legal notice for

    fsasaki: we want an ability for some content to be excluded;
    yves proposed using the ! operator for 'excluding' a particular

    <fsasaki> <p its-locale-filter-list="!*-CA">Legal notice for
    all locales except Canada</p>

    shaunm: we had that functionality, but no-one wanted it

    fsasaki: we dropped it in August, and we didn't have a clear
    record of discussion beyond private e-mails

    Yves_: i hadn't followed up on that topic
    ... but it is still useful functionality

    fsasaki: would that result into additional changes in the test

    Yves_: current test cases only include locales, we'd need to
    add a new test case for excluding

    shaunm: it's a fairly big change for a last call

    fsasaki: we shouldn't avoid doing that, we don't have to make a
    final decision today

    Des: I support the ! exclusion proposal

    fsasaki: we have 5 implementers for locale filter

    <omstefanov> an excluding test case should show excluding of
    more than 1 case, such would be realistic. The example Yves
    brought is so "real world" it's hard to believe we missed it.

    fsasaki: do people have a preference for the ! over a special

    <omstefanov> what would the attribute look like, and would it
    be IN ADDITION TO positive selections?

    shaunm: attribute also isn't problematic

    <Ankit> either way (! or keyword) wors for us (DCU)

    Yves_: personally think ! is easier, but not against a specific

    <clieske> BCP47 does not provide an impression for "inverse"?

    <fsasaki> no

    <clieske> Should it? :-)

    clieske: this is a suggestion for providing feedback to BCP47
    people for including an exclusion syntax

    <scribe> ACTION: felix to check with I18N group about
    exclamation mark to signify an exclusion [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-454 - Check with I18N group about
    exclamation mark to signify an exclusion [on Felix Sasaki - due

    <scribe> ACTION: Yves to create examples of locale filters with
    exclusion (using exclamation marks) [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-455 - Create examples of locale
    filters with exclusion (using exclamation marks) [on Yves
    Savourel - due 2013-03-11].

HTML and ITS discussion


      [24] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Feb/0298.html

    Yves_: some html elements have counterintuitive behaviour on
    inheritance, for instance <del> shouldn't be translatable,
    while its sub-elements can have different defaults
    ... we shouldn't make things like this compicated for the user

    kfritsche: it makes sense to implement this as defaults, not as

    shaunm: we could make the same argument for every format
    ... it becomes a problem on how we apply information

    fsasaki: in practice, many tools have HTML filters, which
    describe defaults different to the defaults in the
    format-agnostic ITS spec
    ... for instance, the translate in HTML will have different
    defaults than its:translate


      [25] https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=21085

    <fsasaki> above is the HTML5 bug

    Yves_: shaun has a point, but in this case we write against the
    HTML5 spec, which we refer to specifically. it might make sense
    to have different defaults for that particular format

    fsasaki: another argument might be the workflows of
    Linguaserve, where XHTML is used in the XML processing chain,
    as well as HTML processing chains, and having them aligned can
    be beneficial
    ... the question is also for the xml-only implementers: will
    they be required to implement these defaults

    Pedro: yes, we have this use case

    fsasaki: we need some more feedback on this on mailing list.
    let's keep the topic on the agenda and see how the discussion
    moves forward

Testing - good news


      [26] http://htmlpreview.github.com/?https://raw.github.com/finnle/ITS-2.0-Testsuite/master/its2.0/testSuiteDashboard.html#conformance-classes-overview


      [27] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt-tests/2013Mar/0000.html

    <fsasaki> [28]http://www.w3.org/2012/09/mlw-lt-charter.html

      [28] http://www.w3.org/2012/09/mlw-lt-charter.html

    fsasaki: here's the test suite status

    fsasaki: our charter says that we do testing from March to
    October, and we're mostly done. We can take time to finalize
    some features, and I'm confident we won't need much time for

    philr: one topic from last week was discussing which way should
    the stand-off references point?

    fsasaki: I made the experiment from inverting the pointer
    direction, from outside to inside might be more efficient

    <scribe> ACTION: phil to follow up on stand-off pointer
    direction (quality, provenance) [recorded in

    <trackbot> Created ACTION-456 - Follow up on stand-off pointer
    direction (quality, provenance) [on Phil Ritchie - due

Test suite errors, please fix if you see your name

    fsasaki: some errors aren't really errors, for instance RDFa
    ... the output will likely influence the output of the test
    ... so having an update in time will be helpful

clarify character encoding behaviour see latest thread

    swalter: the discussion split in several threads. we made some
    specification on how a program should behave when not
    supporting an encoding given constraints, there wasn't any
    consensus on what should be done with the storageSize
    ... it usually denotes the size of the database field, and it's
    not a MUST. how can we have a MUST, if it's not required

    fsasaki: if we feel that a MUST is not necessary, we can reject
    the comment

    shaunm: what should the program do if it doesn't understand the
    character encoding?

    swalter: the program uses the encoding to verify the
    constraint, but it's not obligatory to validate that
    ... As an user of ITS, you could feel unsafe whether you give a
    tool a constraint which it will not obey
    ... especially when there are consumers that may care
    ... however, we normally don't constrain consumers

    Yves_: we could have a note that would describe the expected
    behaviour (described with lowercase should, must)
    ... and not worry about conformance at our level

    swalter: there could be a distinction between what consumers or
    producers conform to

    fsasaki: should we push for such a note?


      [30] https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/issues/106

    <scribe> ACTION: Stephan Walter to propose a note for the
    character encoding behaviour [I18N-ISSUE-246] [recorded in


    <fsasaki> no further update, see discussion above

hanlding of defaults in test suite


      [32] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Mar/0045.html


      [33] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Mar/0044.html


      [34] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Mar/0046.html

    kfritsche: the defaults in the storage encoding is a value, but
    the understanding of the default was that it was integrated
    later; we propose the behavior that would set it to utf-8 if no
    other value was present

    Yves_: it's different behaviour than ordinary defaults


      [35] https://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/actions/open

    <fsasaki> action-390?

    <trackbot> ACTION-390 -- Tadej Štajner to check tan examples
    and test suite with regards to presence of annotatorsRef -- due
    2013-01-30 -- OPEN


      [36] http://www.w3.org/International/multilingualweb/lt/track/actions/390

    <fsasaki> tadej: can be closed, done, changes are in github
    pull requeste

    <fsasaki> close action-390

    <trackbot> Closed ACTION-390 Check tan examples and test suite
    with regards to presence of annotatorsRef.

    <fsasaki> tadej: did the check, all examples are valid


    fsasaki: anyone at CeBIT?
    ... we'll have some demos for ITS, thanks to Cocomore
    ... is the current schedule of calls ok for all?
    ... right now, we still don't have a right call time that works
    for everyone. let's try again after the review

Summary of Action Items

    [NEW] ACTION: felix to check with I18N group about exclamation
    mark to signify an exclusion [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: phil to follow up on stand-off pointer direction
    (quality, provenance) [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: Stephan Walter to propose a note for the
    character encoding behaviour [I18N-ISSUE-246] [recorded in
    [NEW] ACTION: Yves to create examples of locale filters with
    exclusion (using exclamation marks) [recorded in

    [End of minutes]

     Minutes formatted by David Booth's [41]scribe.perl version
     1.137 ([42]CVS log)
     $Date: 2013-03-04 17:22:55 $

      [41] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm
      [42] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/2002/scribe/

Scribe.perl diagnostic output

    [Delete this section before finalizing the minutes.]
This is scribe.perl Revision: 1.137  of Date: 2012/09/20 20:19:01
Check for newer version at [43]http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/

      [43] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/

Guessing input format: RRSAgent_Text_Format (score 1.00)

Succeeded: s/local/locale/
Succeeded: s/whileits/while its/
Succeeded: s/counterintutitive/counterintuitive/
Succeeded: s/rules/defaults, not as rules/
Succeeded: s/rules/defaults/
Succeeded: s/informaiton/information/
Succeeded: s/bugs/bug/
Found Scribe: tbd
Found Scribe: tadej
Inferring ScribeNick: tadej
Scribes: tbd, tadej
Present: fsasaki omstefanov tadej Karl daveLewis philr shaunm Yves Giuse
ppe DomJones Marcis Ankit mdelolmo Milan Des Pedro leroy chriLi
Regrets: Pablo
Agenda: [44]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-l
Got date from IRC log name: 04 Mar 2013
Guessing minutes URL: [45]http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-minutes.ht
People with action items: felix phil philr stephan swalter walter yves y

      [44] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-multilingualweb-lt/2013Mar/0039.html
      [45] http://www.w3.org/2013/03/04-mlw-lt-minutes.html

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      [46] http://dev.w3.org/cvsweb/~checkout~/2002/scribe/scribedoc.htm

Received on Monday, 4 March 2013 17:25:40 UTC