Re: Comment on ITS 2.0 WD-its20-20121206 - Inline global rules in XHTML from Felix Sasaki on 2013-02-01 (public-multilingualweb-lt-comments@w3.org from February 2013)

From: Felix Sasaki <fsasaki@w3.org>
Date: Fri, 01 Feb 2013 11:08:15 +0100
To: Mauricio del Olmo <mauricio.delolmo@linguaserve.com>
CC: public-multilingualweb-lt-comments@w3.org
Message-ID: <510B940F.6020804@w3.org>
Am 01.02.13 10:56, schrieb Mauricio del Olmo:
>
> Hello Felix.
>
> All this comes from the discussion we had in Lyon about the 
> interchange format. If you remember, we had the problem of embedding 
> html inside the interchange xml (a necessity with CMS generated 
> contents) and to avoid using an external file for the rules because 
> that created dependencies between files that gives problems with the 
> interchange between the two sides (CMS and LSP). Also we used CDATA 
> for embedding the html content but that disallowed the use of global 
> rules.
>
> After the discussion with the WG we decided to switch the interchange 
> format to xhtml because it had all the advantages. As shown in the 
> example, we could use global rules inside the same document, put html 
> content directly in it and all the benefits of xml as integration format.
>

I remember that discussion - but I had thought that you have a 
requirement to give valid XHTML to your client, no? I don't remember why 
embedding via "script" in XHTML doesn't work for you - could you 
clarifiy? It would have the benefit that your XHTML is valid.
This example (previous version of example 29) is not valid XHTML:
[

*<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">*
*<html*  xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"  xml:lang="en"*>*
     *<head>*
         *<title>*XHTML and ITS2.0*</title>*
         *<its:rules*  xmlns:its="http://www.w3.org/2005/11/its"  version="2.0"
             xmlns:h="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"*>*
             *<its:domainRule*  selector="/h:html/h:body"
                 domainPointer="/h:html/h:head/h:meta[@name='keywords']/@content"*  />*
             *<its:locNoteRule*  locNoteType="description"  selector="/h:html/h:body"*>*
                 *<its:locNote>*ITS Rules can directly used inside of XHTML.*</its:locNote>*
             *</its:locNoteRule>*
         *</its:rules>*
         *<meta*  name="keywords"  content="ITS, domain, 'localization note', example"*  />*
     *</head>*
     *<body>*
         *<h1>*XHTML and ITS2.0*</h1>*
         *<p>*Don't use*<span*  its-loc-note="Internationalization Tag Set"*>*ITS*</span>*  prefixed
             attributes inside the content, like its:locNote.*</p>*
     *</body>*
*</html>*

]


This example (with rules in "script") is valid XHTML:

[

*<!DOCTYPE html PUBLIC "-//W3C//DTD XHTML 1.0 Strict//EN" "http://www.w3.org/TR/xhtml1/DTD/xhtml1-strict.dtd">*
*<html*  xmlns="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"  xml:lang="en"*>*
     *<head>*
         *<title>*XHTML and ITS2.0*</title>*<script type="application/xml">
         *<its:rules*  xmlns:its="http://www.w3.org/2005/11/its"  version="2.0"
             xmlns:h="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"*>*
             *<its:domainRule*  selector="/h:html/h:body"
                 domainPointer="/h:html/h:head/h:meta[@name='keywords']/@content"*  />*
             *<its:locNoteRule*  locNoteType="description"  selector="/h:html/h:body"*>*
                 *<its:locNote>*ITS Rules can directly used inside of XHTML.*</its:locNote>*
             *</its:locNoteRule>*
         *</its:rules></script>*
         *<meta*  name="keywords"  content="ITS, domain, 'localization note', example"*  />*
     *</head>*
     *<body>*
         *<h1>*XHTML and ITS2.0*</h1>*
         *<p>*Don't use*<span*  its-loc-note="Internationalization Tag Set"*>*ITS*</span>*  prefixed
             attributes inside the content, like its:locNote.*</p>*
     *</body>*
*</html>*

]

> The problem in changing the implementation now is that we are already 
> translating the contents of VDMA (Cocomore’s client) with this 
> approach and we have planned to show that in Rome. Also we have a 
> schedule to follow to achieve this.
>

I understand this - but I want to make sure that we give the right 
guidance. And above change (having "script with rules element" instead 
of invalid XHTML) is probably rather minor?

> One last remark about the interpretation of the example 29, it said 
> “Using ITS 2.0 markup in XHTML” and “This examples illustrates the use 
> of ITS 2.0 local markup and global rules in XHTML.”. From my point of 
> view, that left little space to misinterpretation.
>

Agree - now we removed the global rules, and I think we should not have 
them, at least not outside of "script", since we don't want to recommend 
that. Let me know what you think.

Best,

Felix


> Sorry for the problems we give.
>
> *__________________________________*
>
> *Mauricio del Olmo Martínez*
>
> *Dpto. Técnico/I+D+i*
>
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>
> *De:*Felix Sasaki [mailto:fsasaki@w3.org]
> *Enviado el:* jueves, 31 de enero de 2013 20:53
> *Para:* public-multilingualweb-lt-comments@w3.org
> *Asunto:* Re: Comment on ITS 2.0 WD-its20-20121206 - Inline global 
> rules in XHTML
>
> So probably we should remove example 29, because it demonstrates a 
> SHOULD NOT statement.
>
> With regards to tests for XHTML: I can't imagine people to use the 
> approach of inline global rules if we remove the statement. Mauricio, 
> would it be possible for you to switch to the "in script" or "linked 
> global rules" approach?
>
> At Yves: you are right about the "should" and "Should not". I will 
> create an issue pointing to this thread.
>
> I think this change would resolve the inline global rules topic, but 
> not the language attribute usage. Thoughts?
>
> - Felix
>
> Am 31.01.13 20:17, schrieb Mauricio del Olmo:
>
>     Because if you read that phrase that discourages the use of inline
>     global rules, with references to the script way, and below is an
>     xhtml example with ITS global rules xml style we thought: “ok,
>     that’s the way it should be instead”.
>
>     […]
>
>     *<its:rules*xmlns:its="http://www.w3.org/2005/11/its"
>     <http://www.w3.org/2005/11/its>version="2.0"
>
>     xmlns:h="http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml"
>     <http://www.w3.org/1999/xhtml>*>*
>
>     *<its:domainRule*selector="/h:html/h:body"
>
>     domainPointer="/h:html/h:head/h:meta[@name='keywords']/@content"*/>*
>
>     *<its:locNoteRule*locNoteType="description"selector="/h:html/h:body"*>*
>
>     *<its:locNote>*ITS Rules can directly used inside of
>     XHTML.*</its:locNote>*
>
>     *</its:locNoteRule>*
>
>     *         </its:rules>*
>
>     […]
>
>     *__________________________________*
>
>     *Mauricio del Olmo Martínez*
>
>     *Dpto. Técnico/I+D+i*
>
>     *Linguaserve Internacionalización de Servicios, S.A.*
>
>     *Tel.: +34 91 761 64 60 ext. 0421
>     Fax: +34 91 542 89 28 *
>
>     *E-mail: **tecnico@linguaserve.com <mailto:tecnico@linguaserve.com>*
>
>     *www.linguaserve.com <http://www.linguaserve.com/>*
>
>     **
>
>     *«En cumplimiento con lo previsto con los artículos 21 y 22 de la
>     Ley 34/2002, de 11 de julio, de Servicios de la Sociedad de
>     Información y Comercio Electrónico, le informamos que procederemos
>     al archivo y tratamiento de sus datos exclusivamente con fines de
>     promoción de los productos y servicios ofrecidos por LINGUASERVE
>     INTERNACIONALIZACIÓN DE SERVICIOS, S.A. En caso de que Vdes. no
>     deseen que procedamos al archivo y tratamiento de los datos
>     proporcionados, o no deseen recibir comunicaciones comerciales
>     sobre los productos y servicios ofrecidos, comuníquenoslo a
>     clients@linguaserve.com <mailto:clients@linguaserve.com>, y su
>     petición será inmediatamente cumplida.»*
>
>     **
>
>     *"According to the provisions set forth in articles 21 and 22 of
>     Law 34/2002 of July 11 regarding Information Society and eCommerce
>     Services, we will store and use your personal data with the sole
>     purpose of marketing the products and services offered by
>     LINGUASERVE INTERNACIONALIZACIÓN DE SERVICIOS, S.A. If you do not
>     wish your personal data to be stored and handled, or you do not
>     wish to receive further information regarding products and
>     services offered by our company, please e-mail us to
>     clients@linguaserve.com <mailto:clients@linguaserve.com>. Your
>     request will be processed immediately.”*
>
>     *__________________________________*
>
>     -----Mensaje original-----
>     De: Jirka Kosek [mailto:jirka@kosek.cz]
>     Enviado el: jueves, 31 de enero de 2013 20:01
>     Para: Mauricio del Olmo
>     CC: 'Yves Savourel'; public-multilingualweb-lt-comments@w3.org
>     <mailto:public-multilingualweb-lt-comments@w3.org>
>     Asunto: Re: Comment on ITS 2.0 WD-its20-20121206 - Inline global
>     rules in XHTML
>
>     On 31.1.2013 19:44, Mauricio del Olmo wrote:
>
>     > Yes, we use global rules with its xml syntax like in the example
>     (not
>
>     > inside script) and that is what we understood reading the phrase
>     “and
>
>     > <http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-its20-20121206/#rfc2119> SHOULD NOT use
>
>     >
>     <http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-its20-20121206/#html5-inline-global-rule
>
>     > s> inline global rules” that points to the section that
>     describes the
>
>     > rules inside <script> tags: “Inline global rules
>
>     > <http://www.w3.org/TR/2012/WD-its20-20121206/#rfc2119> MUST be
>
>     > specified inside script which has…”
>
>     Hm, wondering why you think this is correct understanding.
>
>     "... SHOULD NOT use inline global rules..." means that you
>     preferably should use different means like local attributes or
>     external global rules. If you need to use inline global rules
>     anyway then it's pretty clear how to do this:
>
>     "Inline global rules MUST be specified inside script which has..."
>
>     --
>
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Received on Friday, 1 February 2013 10:08:41 UTC