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Re: Response to your LC Comment -2393 on Media Ontology spec

From: Silvia Pfeiffer <silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com>
Date: Thu, 4 Nov 2010 01:16:08 +1100
Message-ID: <AANLkTi=8u0cqEr7ovP4FYeY16HPyqiAdvE6daXvq=Sn-@mail.gmail.com>
To: Thierry Michel <tmichel@w3.org>
Cc: "public-media-annotation@w3.org" <public-media-annotation@w3.org>
I'll do it tomorrow, so you have it before the end of your f2f.
Regards,
Silvia.

On Wed, Nov 3, 2010 at 8:04 PM, Thierry Michel <tmichel@w3.org> wrote:
>
> The F2F meeting is tomorow and friday. Followaing that we should soon
> release our second Last Call.
>
> Thierry
>
>> Oh... I was and am really busy.
>> When is your meeting?
>> Silvia.
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Nov 2, 2010 at 9:43 PM, Thierry MICHEL <tmichel@w3.org> wrote:
>>> Silvia,
>>>
>>> Did you have the time to fill the WebM multimedia
>>> container format mapping table?
>>>
>>> I would like to include it the spec for our F2F.
>>>
>>> Thanks for your help,
>>> Thierry
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> OK, will do, but not before the weekend.
>>> Thanks,
>>> Silvia.
>>>
>>> On Wed, Oct 20, 2010 at 7:08 PM, Thierry MICHEL <tmichel@w3.org> wrote:
>>>> Silvia,
>>>>
>>>> You have kindly offered to provide information for the WebM multimedia
>>>> container format mapping table.
>>>>
>>>> As I have no feed back from James, could you please send us this
>>>> information.
>>>> The WebM template is available at
>>>>
>>>> http://dev.w3.org/2008/video/mediaann/mediaont-1.0/mediaont-1.0.html#iddiv4x2x27165
>>>>
>>>> Best,
>>>>
>>>> Thierry.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Le 15/10/2010 07:41, Silvia Pfeiffer a écrit :
>>>>>
>>>>> Speex is a codec and not a metadata format. Ogg Speex is already
>>>>> covered
>>>>> by
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> http://dev.w3.org/2008/video/mediaann/mediaont-1.0/mediaont-1.0.html#iddiv4x2x16776,
>>>>> just as that covers Ogg Vorbis and Ogg Theora.
>>>>>
>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>> Silvia.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 4:36 PM, James
>>>>> Salsman<jsalsman@talknicer.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Silvia,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Thierry specifically told me that Speex wasn't approved because it
>>>>>> was
>>>>>> not a metadata format.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Are you saying that Speex is already included in the ontology under
>>>>>> ogg?
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>> James Salsman
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 10:07 PM, Silvia Pfeiffer
>>>>>> <silviapfeiffer1@gmail.com>  wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> James,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Nobody says that media formats do not contain metadata. But you are
>>>>>>> referring to codec data here and not to media fromats. Codec data
>>>>>>> never
>>>>>>> stands on its own and can thus not expose metadata. It always
>>>>>>> exposes
>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>
>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> part of a container. Thus, Ogg Speex already is covered. And you
>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>> regard metadata for VP8 in the context of WebM.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Thus, when Thierry asks for a spec for WebM metadata, that will
>>>>>>> cover
>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>> VP8 metadata.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Regards,
>>>>>>> Silvia.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Fri, Oct 15, 2010 at 3:07 PM, James
>>>>>>> Salsman<jsalsman@talknicer.com>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Dear Thierry,
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I most certainly do not cancel my objection.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Please send me the names and email addresses of all persons who
>>>>>>>> purport to claim that media format definitions do not contain
>>>>>>>> metadata.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> I have asked the VP8 and Speex media authorities to complete your
>>>>>>>> ontology forms.
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> Sincerely,
>>>>>>>> James Salsman
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>> On Thu, Oct 14, 2010 at 4:15 AM, Thierry MICHEL<tmichel@w3.org>
>>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> James,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> We need to wrap up this issue in order to allow the MAWG to move
>>>>>>
>>>>>> forward
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>> Media Ontology spec.
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Could you please respond to this email and say:
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 1- that you cancel your formal objection.
>>>>>>>>> 2- that you agree to the MAWG proposal to include a
>>>>>>>>> WebM multimedia container format mapping table
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> as you had referred to
>>>>>>>>> http://www.webmproject.org
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> 3- Do you plan to send us the WebM multimedia container format
>>>>>>>>> mapping
>>>>>>>>> table, whith the appropriate info ?
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://dev.w3.org/2008/video/mediaann/mediaont-1.0/mediaont-1.0.html#iddiv4x2x27165
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Best,
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Thierry
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>> Le 12/10/2010 08:54, Thierry MICHEL a écrit :
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Silvia,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> This is exactly what I have told James, in my earlier email in
>>>>>>
>>>>>> response
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> to his last call comment.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-annotation/2010Sep/0225.html
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> extract:
>>>>>>>>>> "To focus on your request to include VP8 and speex in our
>>>>>>>>>> Ontology,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> mapping tables are intended for multimedia *metadata formats*.
>>>>>>>>>> - VP8 is an open video compression format (codec).
>>>>>>>>>> - Speex is a free audio codec for Free Speech.
>>>>>>>>>> These are not *metadata formats*, and therefore not meant to be
>>>>>>
>>>>>> listed
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> in our mapping tables".
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> As James raised an objection if this 2 formats were not included,
>>>>>>>>>> I
>>>>>>>>>> have
>>>>>>>>>> asked him to provide the 2 mapping tables for Speex and VP8, and
>>>>>>>>>> see
>>>>>>>>>> what he could provide ...
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> And, as we had concluded in the MAWG that on the container
>>>>>>>>>> carries
>>>>>>>>>> metadata, I have in a couple of emails asked James to provide a
>>>>>>
>>>>>> mapping
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> table for the media container formats WebM.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> an pointed to the template to use
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/2008/WebVideo/Annotations/drafts/ontology10/CR/mapping_table-php.html
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> I am still waiting for James to provide this information if he
>>>>>>>>>> wants
>>>>>>
>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> see it in the spec. A place holder for this containet is already
>>>>>>>>>> created
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://dev.w3.org/2008/video/mediaann/mediaont-1.0/mediaont-1.0.html#iddiv4x2x27165
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Thierry.
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>> Le 12/10/2010 03:43, Silvia Pfeiffer a écrit :
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> James, Thierry,
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Speex and VP8 are codecs and don't by themselves have accessible
>>>>>>>>>>> metadata.
>>>>>>>>>>> They, however, are not distributed as codec data, but rather
>>>>>>>>>>> inside
>>>>>>>>>>> media
>>>>>>>>>>> containers.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> When we talk about Speex in files, it comes in an Ogg container
>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>
>>>>>> as
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> such
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://dev.w3.org/2008/video/mediaann/mediaont-1.0/mediaont-1.0.html#iddiv4x2x16776should
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> satisfy your need for a mapping table.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> When we talk about VP8 in files, it comes in a WebM container
>>>>>>>>>>> with
>>>>>>>>>>> Vorbis.
>>>>>>>>>>> Somebody needs to fill in
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://dev.w3.org/2008/video/mediaann/mediaont-1.0/mediaont-1.0.html#iddiv4x2x27165
>>>>>> !
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> If nobody is doing it, let me know and I'll make the time to dig
>>>>>>>>>>> it
>>>>>>>>>>> out.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> Cheers,
>>>>>>>>>>> Silvia.
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>> On Tue, Oct 12, 2010 at 3:54 AM, Thierry MICHEL<tmichel@w3.org>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Dear James,
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> In your latest email to the MAWG response to your comment, you
>>>>>>>>>>>> seem
>>>>>>>>>>>> to
>>>>>>>>>>>> disagree with the MAWG proposal.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-media-annotation/2010Sep/0245.html
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> "I don't agree with the statement that speex or VP8 are not
>>>>>>
>>>>>> metadata
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> formats. They are audio and audiovisual media formats which
>>>>>>>>>>>> contain
>>>>>>>>>>>> both metadata and data in their specifications.
>>>>>>>>>>>> This disagreement can be resolved if speex and VP8 are included
>>>>>>>>>>>> in
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> media ontology".
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> The group is currently discussing your objection. Speex is an
>>>>>>>>>>>> audio
>>>>>>>>>>>> format, and the Ontology spec is mainly incorporating images
>>>>>>>>>>>> and
>>>>>>>>>>>> video
>>>>>>>>>>>> metadata formats.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> To move forward, could you please send the MAWG the 2 mapping
>>>>>>
>>>>>> tables
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> for
>>>>>>>>>>>> Speex and VP8.
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Please use as template the following tables with the exact name
>>>>>>>>>>>> of
>>>>>>>>>>>> the
>>>>>>>>>>>> property being mapped to, like ma:identifier, ma:title, etc.
>>>>>>>>>>>> and the same columns: Relation, How to do the mapping,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Datatype,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Required
>>>>>>>>>>>> vs Optional,XPath
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> templates:
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> http://dev.w3.org/2008/video/mediaann/mediaont-1.0/mediaont-1.0.html#metadata-mapping-table
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Could you please send these ASAP as we are about to release a
>>>>>>>>>>>> new
>>>>>>>>>>>> publication of the Media Ontology spec
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>> Best regards,
>>>>>>>>>>>> Thierry Michel
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Thierry Michel
> W3C
>
Received on Wednesday, 3 November 2010 14:17:02 UTC

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