Re: Proof: Linked Data does not require RDF

Hi Kingsley,
Some answers:
On 19 Jun 2013, at 13:33, Kingsley Idehen <kidehen@openlinksw.com> wrote:

> On 6/19/13 8:09 AM, Hugh Glaser wrote:
>> Firstly, having now read the threads, I thank you all for a lot of very interesting and thoughtful words.
>> Also, as best I can describe what I think, it seems that David Booth has eloquently said much of what I would say.
>> 
>> I'm not sure if there are many people still reading these threads, but, just diving in by responding to Norman's message, I think the answer does matter somewhat (hence I asked it), although not necessarily because of the two strands Norman mentions.
>> 
>> The question I sort of thought I was asking was indeed a social one.
>> And very personal.
>> I want to discuss stuff about Linked Data (with capitals) in a forum with other people who share sufficiently similar views of what Linked Data means so that the discussion is productive etc..
> 
> Maybe subject of another thread, but this is your fundamental assumption: every one that subscribes to this list assumes that Linked Data and RDF are one and the same thing. Put differently, even if they don't assume them to be one and the same thing, the don't see how one can be discussed without inferring the other, right?
Absolutely not.
RDF is frequently discussed, especially on the SemWeb list, without any assumption of Linked Data.
In fact, when I venture onto the SemWeb list I try hard to avoid Linked Data assumptions, since my understanding is that many members do not find the Linked Data stuff directly interesting, and the focus of that list is best kept separate from Linked Data, in particular with respect to resolvable URIs.
> 
> If I've correctly outlined your fundamental position, then I add some clarity to my world view, I don't believe this mailing list is about such presumptions. And I don't think being hosted by the W3C mandates such presumptions about the lists subscriber profile.
No mandates intended - just social constructs for focussed and productive discussion.
> 
> Am I correct in assuming that what I outlined in my Venn diagram [1] is heresy on this list?
>> To me, if Linked Data does not (at the moment) assume that RDF is involved, whatever that might mean, then the discussion is unlikely to be productive, and can actually be quite destructive.
>> This is because of a constant widening of issues, rather than focussing on the primary topics.
> So I can assume that you are inferring the following, with regards to the Venn diagram:
> 
> 1. it's destructive
> 2. it's widening issues.
Basically yes - because widening the whole thing at this stage makes it harder to focus on the problems we currently have.
> 
>> The threads (plus personal emails) give me a sense that there is a majority who would like to avoid taking the discussions outside the RDF world, but that there is a vocal minority who will resist this at all costs.
>> 
>> I actually think that the question we are trying to answer is what is the scope of this list.
> 
> Yes, which is basically the point I made higher up in this post. This is another important issue that needs to be addressed (just like the 2009 Linked Data meme revision) on this thread. Could even help David Booth construct a new survey, this is really important to me, personally.
> 
>> In a strong sense, Linked Data is what *we* decide it is; we don't have to worry about history, or anything like that (sunk costs), but what we want it to be now.
> 
> Sorry, I disagree.
Admirably clear, thanks.
So without discussing what it is technical, where does the social consensus, or whatever you think it is, come from?
Or is it simply a reference to some historical document?
> 
>> That is, for the LOD list - we certainly have no control over what others might mean by it, any more than Engineers in the UK have control over the fact that the person who fixes the home appliances is commonly referred to as an engineer, or Xerox have control over people using the term in common speech to mean copy (or Hoover, etc.).
>> But we can try to organise our community (exceptionally fragile as it is), so that we can have productive discussions around what a core of people want to discuss under the term Linked Data.
> 
> I think you are contradicting yourself. I say that because you believe (as expressed higher up in this post) that this list should be about a specific Linked Data connotation. It also appears to me you find debating thorny issues problematic.
> 
>> 
>> So what should I do? - Remember, I said this was personal.
> 
> Same here, with regards to your comments in this post.
> 
>> 
>> Well, if the vocal minority decide that they cannot choose to narrow the view they have of Linked Data to exclude the more general stuff, so that discussions are focussed around stuff that assumes RDF, then I will obviously withdraw.
>> That's fine with me, although I think it will be a shame.
>> There is another list (Semweb) that will be a better sole home.
> 
> And that list existed before any incarnation of this list. How come that list isn't a hotbed of discussion about RDF and Linked Data? Remember, it is the Semantic Web list.
I think I answered this above.
Instead of having one discussion list for anything about the world, lists get segmented into different ones that have certain focusses - this is a very helpful way of helping people to get the best value out of their time interacting.
>> Of course, an alternative would be to have a new list, on W3C or elsewhere, such as Google groups.
>> This would be for Linked Data discussion, with a current assumption of RDF.
>> We could even call it Linked Data, as opposed to Linked Open Data, which would actually more accurately describe what gets discussed, in some sense.
> 
> RDF Linked Data would be a proper name for such a list.
As I said, I would badge it Linked Data.

Best
Hugh
> 
> Links:
> 
> 1. http://bit.ly/16EVFVG -- Venn diagram illustrating how Identifiers (URIs), Structured Data (Linked Data), and RDF (Predicate Logic) are related .
> 
> 
> Kingsley
>> 
>> Best to you all
>> Hugh
>> 
>> On 19 Jun 2013, at 12:33, Norman Gray <norman@astro.gla.ac.uk>
>>  wrote:
>> 
>>> Kingsley and all, hello.
>>> 
>>> On 2013 Jun 19, at 12:06, Kingsley Idehen wrote:
>>> 
>>>> The issues at hand are as follows:
>>>> 
>>>> 1. Is RDF the only option for producing Linked Data that's 100% compliant with TimBL's original meme?
>>>> 2. Are RDF and Linked Data tightly or loosely coupled?
>>> Those are good and clear, but I think a third issue is:
>>> 
>>> 3. Do the answers matter?
>>> 
>>> There seem to be two strands in this thread (which I think has now spread across multiple lists).  One strand is concerned to devise a precise definition of what Linked Data means, and hence what's included in, and excluded from, the definition  (call this the 'technical strand'); the other is content to see Linked Data as a rather 'softer' or vaguer thing, concerned with rhetoric, exposition or dissemination (call this the 'sociotechnical strand').
>>> 
>>>  * For the technical strand, of course the answers matter, because how else can you decide whether something is compliant with TimBL's meme (I'm not sure that memes include conformance clauses, but we can let that pass...!).  Hence discussion of reasoning, logic, expressiveness, 'overtly RDF', your Venn diagram, and so on.
>>> 
>>>  * From the point of view of the sociotechnical strand, the answers don't matter ('distinction without a difference'), because these are non-questions, because 'linked data' isn't something that can be complied with or not.  Or, put another way, concluding that something is or is not officially Linked Data doesn't imply anything important.
>>> 
>>> I think there's a certain amount of talking past one another in this thread, because arguments in one strand seem muddled or even mischievous when viewed from the other.
>>> 
>>> Does this help this thread at all?
>>> 
>>> All the best,
>>> 
>>> Norman
>>> 
>>> 
>>> -- 
>>> Norman Gray  :  http://nxg.me.uk
>>> SUPA School of Physics and Astronomy, University of Glasgow, UK
>>> 
>>> 
>> 
>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> -- 
> 
> Regards,
> 
> Kingsley Idehen	
> Founder & CEO
> OpenLink Software
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>

Received on Wednesday, 19 June 2013 13:05:40 UTC