Re: Issues with DA,NA,GA default medial variants

Hi all,
I sent my last email to hurried.
The mapping table is at page 13 and descriptions are at page 14 and 
relevant characters are marked as yellow.

Jirimutu: What could be first medial for DA, if second medial form 
https://r12a.github.io/scripts/mongolian/v/1833m.pngis ? It's not hard 
to find even for foreigner.

Badral

On 20.11.2015 13:04, jrmt@almas.co.jp wrote:
>
> Badral,
>
> Ok. It is first time we have heard from you about the standard of 
> Mongolia.
>
> I saw you provided the presentation character set naming, not the 
> mapping table.
>
> But when I checked the presentation character set, you have marked as 
> three character for me with Yellow.
>
> But I find the Yellow marked line
>
> 1.The NA FIRST MEDIAL FORM  - 
> https://r12a.github.io/scripts/mongolian/v/1828m1.png is same with 
> what you are saying.
>
> 2.The QA SECOND MEDIAL FORM - 
> https://r12a.github.io/scripts/mongolian/v/182Cm1.png is not same with 
> what you were saying before. and you say now GA is not explicitly 
> defined in report 170
>
> 3.The SECOND MEDIAL FORM  - 
> https://r12a.github.io/scripts/mongolian/v/1833m.png is same with what 
> you are saying. But did you find another one form FIRST MEDIAL FORM in 
> the character set ?
>
> Actually, we cannot rely on this table to decide the mapping. Because 
> in this table, one glyph (one presentation form) have only one occurrence.
>
> For example, there are only one 
> https://r12a.github.io/scripts/mongolian/v/1820m.pngfor all medial 
> form of A, E, NA in this character set.
>
> For this reason, it cannot be the reliable document part.
>
> Please check the real mapping part of the TR170 attached P5 for NA, P6 
> for GA, P8 for DA in AppendixA.pdf .
>
> I am assuming we are refereeing same version.
>
> If the standard is different with this TR170, please provide us the 
> PDF if possible.
>
> I would like to know how it had been corrected the TR170 to Standard 
> of Mongolia in the year 2000.
>
> It is not same with your declaration I find.
>
> Regards,
>
> Jirimutu
>
> ===============================================================
>
> Almas Inc.
>
> 101-0021 601 Nitto-Bldg, 6-15-11, Soto-Kanda, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo
>
> E-Mail: jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp> Mobile : 090-6174-6115
>
> Phone : 03-5688-2081,   Fax : 03-5688-2082
>
> http://www.almas.co.jp/ http://www.compiere-japan.com/
>
> http://www.mongolfont.com/
>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
> Inner Mongolia Delehi Information Technology Co. Ltd.
>
> 010010 13th floor of Uiles Hotel, No 89 XinHua east street XinCheng 
> District, Hohhot, Inner Mongolia
>
> Mail: jirimutu@delehi.com <mailto:jirimutu@delehi.com> Mobile:18647152148
>
> Phone:  +86-471-6661969,      Ofiice：+86-471-6661995
>
> http://www.delehi.com/
>
> ===============================================================
>
> *From:*Badral S. [mailto:badral@bolorsoft.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, November 20, 2015 8:12 PM
> *To:* public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org
> *Subject:* Re: Issues with DA,NA,GA default medial variants
>
> Hi Jirimutu, Greg and all,
> I just want to answer following most important question from Jirimutu. 
> All other issues are more technical and absolutely possible and not 
> hard to solve by OT rules.
>
> Do we really need this changes ? I don’t know which documentation are 
> referring to creating your fonts.
>
> I think it should be the TR170 or updated version of the document you 
> are referring. This document is listing all of these character’s first 
> medial form and second medial same with NP.
>
> We hold TR 170 and MNS 4932:2000 which is almost same as Unicode to 
> create our fonts! We have to hold it.
> At the creation time (year 2000) of Mongolian script font there exists 
> no document except MNS4932:2000 and technical report 170. We all know, 
> report 170 is not perfect and has some troubles but not for above 
> mentioned characters. Until now, there exist no internationally 
> accepted document except report 170.
> Goto page 13 and see decimal #044 for DA.
> Goto page 13 and see decimal #020 for NA.
> GA is not explicitly defined in report 170. But you read carefully 
> then you can find it on page 16-17 at an example. The second medial 
> form of QA is same as first medial form of GA.
> If you don't agree with GA, I am nothing against it. But for DA and NA 
> we all have to respect Unicode standard.
>
> Badral
>
> On 20.11.2015 06:04, jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp> wrote:
>
>     Hi Badral and Greg
>
>     >The "separated medial form" is not my term. I don't know what it means.
>     >This term has been appeared in Jirimutu's email.
>
>     Yes, it is what I am mentioned in my mail.
>
>     It is mean that if we list the individual medial form of the
>     character in textbook, grammar book or in the
>
>     Technical document related with the encoding or some other
>     information technology,
>
>     We can not display all the medial form of these character without
>     FVS.
>
>     In this case if two parties using different definition of the FVS
>     that will cause problem.
>
>     I was trying to persuade myself to accept Badral’s insistence if
>     its impaction is limited in the range of the usage mentioned above.
>
>     But after thinking over the encoding, there are exists following
>     side effect actually.
>
>     I think Badral should help Greg to solve the side effect before
>     update the NP list.
>
>     1.For NA medial form change request,
>
>     It will impact the Greg’s over-riding rule and over-riding glyph
>     selection.  If the dotted medial form of NA
>     https://r12a.github.io/scripts/mongolian/v/1828m1.pngcomes as
>     first medial form ( default form ),
>
>     The over-riding medial form (third form) should become the default
>     form with the dotted medial form
>     https://r12a.github.io/scripts/mongolian/v/1828m1.png.
>
>     In this case, the over-riding rule as well as example words all
>     become different completely.
>
>     You have to help Greg to re-verify the over-riding rule and
>     provide plenty of examples to  prove it is workable.
>
>     2.For GA medial form change request,
>
>     It will impact the Greg’s over-riding rule and over-riding glyph
>     selection too.  If the dotted masculine medial form of GA
>     https://r12a.github.io/scripts/mongolian/v/182Cm1.pngcomes as
>     first medial form ( default form ),
>
>     The over-riding masculine medial form (third form) should become
>     the default form with the dotted masculine medial
>     formhttps://r12a.github.io/scripts/mongolian/v/182Cm1.png.
>
>     In this case, the over-riding rule as well as example words all
>     become different completely.
>
>     You have to help Greg to re-verify the over-riding rule and
>     provide plenty of examples to  prove it is workable.
>
>     3.For DA medial form change request,
>
>     If you change the medial form of DA
>     https://r12a.github.io/scripts/mongolian/v/1833s.png to first
>     medial form (default form) of DA, you have to consider additional
>     over-riding rule for this character.
>
>     Because current first medial form of DA
>     https://r12a.github.io/scripts/mongolian/v/1833m.png, have no
>     tradition to use before vowel. In this reason, we don’t need to
>     over-ride it.
>
>     But if you change the default medial form of DA to
>     https://r12a.github.io/scripts/mongolian/v/1833s.png, we have
>     example word using this medial form before consonant. For example,
>     ᠡᠳ᠋ᠯᠡᠯ etc.
>
>
>
>     You say your font is stable now and you don’t want to change the
>     logic of your font. But if you are refereeing, TR170 to create
>     your fonts,
>
>     is it just your mistake or preference to encode your font
>     different with all of the documents ?
>
>
>
>     I do not want to say that it is not the reason of any change
>     request because they already have stable fonts in hand. I think
>     all of font maker have their own stable font in their hands.
>
>     This forum is for stabilizing of the entire Mongolian Font
>     Encoding internationally in the standard base. We should follow
>     after the standard come to the conclusion.
>
>     I would like to ask Badral how do you handling the word ᠡᠳ᠋ᠯᠡᠯin
>     your current existing font ? maybe you are handle it as one
>     special spelling ?
>
>     or you are not handling it at all.
>
>     It is my first time to considering in this direction, We can not
>     include any design bug when we propose any kind of proposal.
>
>     Thanks and regards,
>
>     Jirimutu
>
>     ===============================================================
>
>     Almas Inc.
>
>     101-0021 601 Nitto-Bldg, 6-15-11, Soto-Kanda, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo
>
>     E-Mail: jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp> Mobile :
>     090-6174-6115
>
>     Phone : 03-5688-2081,   Fax : 03-5688-2082
>
>     http://www.almas.co.jp/ http://www.compiere-japan.com/
>
>     http://www.mongolfont.com/
>
>     ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
>     Inner Mongolia Delehi Information Technology Co. Ltd.
>
>     010010 13th floor of Uiles Hotel, No 89 XinHua east street
>     XinCheng District, Hohhot, Inner Mongolia
>
>     Mail: jirimutu@delehi.com <mailto:jirimutu@delehi.com>
>     Mobile:18647152148
>
>     Phone:  +86-471-6661969,      Ofiice：+86-471-6661995
>
>     http://www.delehi.com/
>
>     ===============================================================
>
>     *From:*Badral S. [mailto:badral@bolorsoft.com]
>     *Sent:* Friday, November 20, 2015 1:03 AM
>     *To:* public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org
>     <mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
>     *Subject:* Re: Issues with DA,NA,GA default medial variants
>
>     Hi Greg,
>     The "separated medial form" is not my term. I don't know what it
>     means.
>     This term has been appeared in Jirimutu's email.
>
>     Badral
>
>     On 19.11.2015 15:59, Greg Eck wrote:
>
>         Hi Badral,
>
>         Can you give an image of the “separated medial form” so that
>         we are crystal clear on which glyph we are talking about?
>
>         I am not sure what this is referring to.
>
>         Thanks,
>         Greg
>
>         >>>>>
>
>         *Sent:*Thursday, November 19, 2015 10:31 PM
>         *Subject:* Re: Issues with DA,NA,GA default medial variants
>
>         We have decided, that we don't change our implementation (BS
>         column) of medial default form of DA, NA, GA due to following
>         reasons.
>         1. Logic and Ambiguation
>         I already mentioned the representation logic in my previous
>         emails. Now plus:
>         NA is distinguished only by dot from A.
>         GA is distinguished only by dot from QA.
>         DA is distinguished only by horizontal tie from TA.
>
>         2. Established almost no destabilization
>         As Jirimutu described there exist almost no destabilization
>         because no FVSs stored in middle of a word.
>         https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-mongolian/2015OctDec/0123.html
>         (cutting:
>
>         Actually we are not typing and storing FVS1 in the complete
>         Mongolian Word actually,
>
>         It is automatically been selecting correct display form in the
>         word.
>
>         Only when we show the separated Medial Form individually, the
>         FVS1 is necessary.
>
>         For this reason, maybe you are misunderstanding the encodings.
>
>         )
>         I didn't understand what is the separated Medial Form. If it's
>         not ISOLATED one, then we should use ZWJ or?
>         In our stem database, there exist no stem in middle form of
>         DA, NA, GA with FVSx. The most words in Greg's example are
>         initial DA which is also stored in our DB with FVS1 except
>         suffixes. (Dun and Dugnelt stored in our DB also with FVS
>         because it's an initial second form of DA.)
>         I think, the misunderstanding was established by magic of OT
>         grammar. The actual problem could be just changing OT grammar
>         rules for font developers. If someone has difficulties, we are
>         ready to help.
>         Can you accept it Jirimutu?
>
>         Greg: Please accept and update your NP column as we requested
>         unless you have contra arguments.
>
>         cheers,
>         Badral
>         >>>>>
>
>
>
>
>
>     -- 
>
>     Badral Sanlig, Software architect
>
>     www.bolorsoft.com <http://www.bolorsoft.com> | www.badral.net
>     <http://www.badral.net>
>
>     Bolorsoft LLC, Selbe Khotkhon 40/4 D2, District 11, Ulaanbaatar
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Badral Sanlig, Software architect
> www.bolorsoft.com <http://www.bolorsoft.com> | www.badral.net 
> <http://www.badral.net>
> Bolorsoft LLC, Selbe Khotkhon 40/4 D2, District 11, Ulaanbaatar


-- 
Badral Sanlig, Software architect
www.bolorsoft.com | www.badral.net
Bolorsoft LLC, Selbe Khotkhon 40/4 D2, District 11, Ulaanbaatar