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RE: Issues with DA,NA,GA default medial variants

From: <jrmt@almas.co.jp>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 21:04:03 +0900
To: "'Badral S.'" <badral@bolorsoft.com>, <public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org>
Message-ID: <000001d1238b$8d53f110$a7fbd330$@almas.co.jp>
Badral,

 

Ok. It is first time we have heard from you about the standard of Mongolia.

 

I saw you provided the presentation character set naming, not the mapping table.

But when I checked the presentation character set, you have marked as three character for me with Yellow.

But I find the Yellow marked line 

1.     The NA FIRST MEDIAL FORM  -  is same with what you are saying.

2.     The QA SECOND MEDIAL FORM -   is not same with what you were saying before. and you say now GA is not explicitly defined in report 170

 

3.     The SECOND MEDIAL FORM  -   is same with what you are saying. But did you find another one form FIRST MEDIAL FORM in the character set ? 

 

Actually, we cannot rely on this table to decide the mapping. Because in this table, one glyph (one presentation form) have only one occurrence.

For example, there are only one for all medial form of A, E, NA in this character set.

For this reason, it cannot be the reliable document part.

 

Please check the real mapping part of the TR170 attached P5 for NA, P6 for GA, P8 for DA in AppendixA.pdf . 

I am assuming we are refereeing same version.

 

If the standard is different with this TR170, please provide us the PDF if possible.

I would like to know how it had been corrected the TR170 to Standard of Mongolia in the year 2000.

It is not same with your declaration I find.

 

Regards,

 

 

Jirimutu

===============================================================

Almas Inc. 

101-0021 601 Nitto-Bldg, 6-15-11, Soto-Kanda, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo

E-Mail:  <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp> jrmt@almas.co.jp   Mobile : 090-6174-6115

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 <http://www.almas.co.jp/> http://www.almas.co.jp/    <http://www.compiere-japan.com/> http://www.compiere-japan.com/

 <http://www.mongolfont.com/> http://www.mongolfont.com/

---------------------------------------------------------------

Inner Mongolia Delehi Information Technology Co. Ltd.

010010 13th floor of Uiles Hotel, No 89 XinHua east street XinCheng District, Hohhot, Inner Mongolia

Mail:   <mailto:jirimutu@delehi.com> jirimutu@delehi.com       Mobile:18647152148

Phone:  +86-471-6661969,      Ofiice: +86-471-6661995

 <http://www.delehi.com/> http://www.delehi.com/

===============================================================

 

From: Badral S. [mailto:badral@bolorsoft.com] 
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2015 8:12 PM
To: public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org
Subject: Re: Issues with DA,NA,GA default medial variants

 

Hi Jirimutu, Greg and all,
I just want to answer following most important question from Jirimutu. All other issues are more technical and absolutely possible and not hard to solve by OT rules.



Do we really need this changes ? I don’t know which documentation are referring to creating your fonts.

I think it should be the TR170 or updated version of the document you are referring. This document is listing all of these character’s first medial form and second medial same with NP.

We hold TR 170 and MNS 4932:2000 which is almost same as Unicode to create our fonts! We have to hold it.
At the creation time (year 2000) of Mongolian script font there exists no document except MNS4932:2000 and technical report 170. We all know, report 170 is not perfect and has some troubles but not for above mentioned characters. Until now, there exist no internationally accepted document except report 170.
Goto page 13 and see decimal #044 for DA.
Goto page 13 and see decimal #020 for NA.
GA is not explicitly defined in report 170. But you read carefully then you can find it on page 16-17 at an example. The second medial form of QA is same as first medial form of GA.
If you don't agree with GA, I am nothing against it. But for DA and NA we all have to respect Unicode standard.

Badral

On 20.11.2015 06:04, jrmt@almas.co.jp <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp>  wrote:

Hi Badral and Greg

 

>The "separated medial form" is not my term. I don't know what it means.
>This term has been appeared in Jirimutu's email. 

Yes, it is what I am mentioned in my mail. 

It is mean that if we list the individual medial form of the character in textbook, grammar book or in the 

Technical document related with the encoding or some other information technology,  

We can not display all the medial form of these character without FVS. 

In this case if two parties using different definition of the FVS that will cause problem. 

 

I was trying to persuade myself to accept Badral’s insistence if its impaction is limited in the range of the usage mentioned above.

But after thinking over the encoding, there are exists following side effect actually. 

I think Badral should help Greg to solve the side effect before update the NP list.

 

1.     For NA medial form change request, 

It will impact the Greg’s over-riding rule and over-riding glyph selection.  If the dotted medial form of NA comes as first medial form ( default form ), 

The over-riding medial form (third form) should become the default form with the dotted medial form . 

In this case, the over-riding rule as well as example words all become different completely. 

You have to help Greg to re-verify the over-riding rule and provide plenty of examples to  prove it is workable.

 

2.     For GA medial form change request, 

It will impact the Greg’s over-riding rule and over-riding glyph selection too.  If the dotted masculine medial form of GA comes as first medial form ( default form ), 

The over-riding masculine medial form (third form) should become the default form with the dotted masculine medial form . 

In this case, the over-riding rule as well as example words all become different completely. 

You have to help Greg to re-verify the over-riding rule and provide plenty of examples to  prove it is workable.

 

3.     For DA medial form change request, 

If you change the medial form of DA  to first medial form (default form) of DA, you have to consider additional over-riding rule for this character.

Because current first medial form of DA , have no tradition to use before vowel. In this reason, we don’t need to over-ride it.

But if you change the default medial form of DA to  , we have example word using this medial form before consonant. For example, ᠡᠳ᠋ᠯᠡᠯ etc. 

 





You say your font is stable now and you don’t want to change the logic of your font. But if you are refereeing, TR170 to create your fonts, 

is it just your mistake or preference to encode your font different with all of the documents ?





 

I do not want to say that it is not the reason of any change request because they already have stable fonts in hand. I think all of font maker have their own stable font in their hands.

This forum is for stabilizing of the entire Mongolian Font Encoding internationally in the standard base. We should follow after the standard come to the conclusion.

 

I would like to ask Badral how do you handling the word ᠡᠳ᠋ᠯᠡᠯ in your current existing font ? maybe you are handle it as one special spelling ? 

or you are not handling it at all. 

It is my first time to considering in this direction, We can not include any design bug when we propose any kind of proposal.

 

Thanks and regards,

 

Jirimutu

===============================================================

Almas Inc. 

101-0021 601 Nitto-Bldg, 6-15-11, Soto-Kanda, Chiyoda-ku, Tokyo

E-Mail:  <mailto:jrmt@almas.co.jp> jrmt@almas.co.jp   Mobile : 090-6174-6115

Phone : 03-5688-2081,   Fax : 03-5688-2082

 <http://www.almas.co.jp/> http://www.almas.co.jp/    <http://www.compiere-japan.com/> http://www.compiere-japan.com/

 <http://www.mongolfont.com/> http://www.mongolfont.com/

---------------------------------------------------------------

Inner Mongolia Delehi Information Technology Co. Ltd.

010010 13th floor of Uiles Hotel, No 89 XinHua east street XinCheng District, Hohhot, Inner Mongolia

Mail:   <mailto:jirimutu@delehi.com> jirimutu@delehi.com       Mobile:18647152148

Phone:  +86-471-6661969,      Ofiice: +86-471-6661995

 <http://www.delehi.com/> http://www.delehi.com/

===============================================================

 

From: Badral S. [mailto:badral@bolorsoft.com] 
Sent: Friday, November 20, 2015 1:03 AM
To: public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org <mailto:public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org> 
Subject: Re: Issues with DA,NA,GA default medial variants

 

Hi Greg,
The "separated medial form" is not my term. I don't know what it means.
This term has been appeared in Jirimutu's email. 

Badral

On 19.11.2015 15:59, Greg Eck wrote:

Hi Badral,

Can you give an image of the “separated medial form” so that we are crystal clear on which glyph we are talking about?

I am not sure what this is referring to.

Thanks,
Greg

>>>>> 

Sent: Thursday, November 19, 2015 10:31 PM
Subject: Re: Issues with DA,NA,GA default medial variants

 

We have decided, that we don't change our implementation (BS column) of medial default form of DA, NA, GA due to following reasons.
1. Logic and Ambiguation
I already mentioned the representation logic in my previous emails. Now plus:
NA is distinguished only by dot from A.
GA is distinguished only by dot from QA.
DA is distinguished only by horizontal tie from TA.

2. Established almost no destabilization
As Jirimutu described there exist almost no destabilization because no FVSs stored in middle of a word. https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-mongolian/2015OctDec/0123.html
(cutting: 

Actually we are not typing and storing FVS1 in the complete Mongolian Word actually, 
It is automatically been selecting correct display form in the word.
Only when we show the separated Medial Form individually, the FVS1 is necessary.
For this reason, maybe you are misunderstanding the encodings.

)
I didn't understand what is the separated Medial Form. If it's not ISOLATED one, then we should use ZWJ or?
In our stem database, there exist no stem in middle form of DA, NA, GA with FVSx. The most words in Greg's example are initial DA which is also stored in our DB with FVS1 except suffixes. (Dun and Dugnelt stored in our DB also with FVS because it's an initial second form of DA.)
I think, the misunderstanding was established by magic of OT grammar. The actual problem could be just changing OT grammar rules for font developers. If someone has difficulties, we are ready to help.
Can you accept it Jirimutu?

Greg: Please accept and update your NP column as we requested unless you have contra arguments.

cheers,
Badral
>>>>>







-- 
Badral Sanlig, Software architect
www.bolorsoft.com <http://www.bolorsoft.com>  | www.badral.net <http://www.badral.net> 
Bolorsoft LLC, Selbe Khotkhon 40/4 D2, District 11, Ulaanbaatar






-- 
Badral Sanlig, Software architect
www.bolorsoft.com <http://www.bolorsoft.com>  | www.badral.net <http://www.badral.net> 
Bolorsoft LLC, Selbe Khotkhon 40/4 D2, District 11, Ulaanbaatar

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Received on Friday, 20 November 2015 12:04:54 UTC

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