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Re: Issues with DA,NA,GA default medial variants

From: Badral S. <badral@bolorsoft.com>
Date: Fri, 20 Nov 2015 12:11:53 +0100
To: public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org
Message-ID: <564EFFF9.30403@bolorsoft.com>
Hi Jirimutu, Greg and all,
I just want to answer following most important question from Jirimutu. 
All other issues are more technical and absolutely possible and not hard 
to solve by OT rules.

Do we really need this changes ? I don’t know which documentation are 
referring to creating your fonts.

I think it should be the TR170 or updated version of the document you 
are referring. This document is listing all of these character’s first 
medial form and second medial same with NP.

We hold TR 170 and MNS 4932:2000 which is almost same as Unicode to 
create our fonts! We have to hold it.
At the creation time (year 2000) of Mongolian script font there exists 
no document except MNS4932:2000 and technical report 170. We all know, 
report 170 is not perfect and has some troubles but not for above 
mentioned characters. Until now, there exist no internationally accepted 
document except report 170.
Goto page 13 and see decimal #044 for DA.
Goto page 13 and see decimal #020 for NA.
GA is not explicitly defined in report 170. But you read carefully then 
you can find it on page 16-17 at an example. The second medial form of 
QA is same as first medial form of GA.
If you don't agree with GA, I am nothing against it. But for DA and NA 
we all have to respect Unicode standard.

Badral

On 20.11.2015 06:04, jrmt@almas.co.jp wrote:
>
> Hi Badral and Greg
>
> >The "separated medial form" is not my term. I don't know what it means.
> >This term has been appeared in Jirimutu's email.
>
> Yes, it is what I am mentioned in my mail.
>
> It is mean that if we list the individual medial form of the character 
> in textbook, grammar book or in the
>
> Technical document related with the encoding or some other information 
> technology,
>
> We can not display all the medial form of these character without FVS.
>
> In this case if two parties using different definition of the FVS that 
> will cause problem.
>
> I was trying to persuade myself to accept Badral’s insistence if its 
> impaction is limited in the range of the usage mentioned above.
>
> But after thinking over the encoding, there are exists following side 
> effect actually.
>
> I think Badral should help Greg to solve the side effect before update 
> the NP list.
>
> 1.For NA medial form change request,
>
> It will impact the Greg’s over-riding rule and over-riding glyph 
> selection.  If the dotted medial form of NA 
> https://r12a.github.io/scripts/mongolian/v/1828m1.pngcomes as first 
> medial form ( default form ),
>
> The over-riding medial form (third form) should become the default 
> form with the dotted medial form 
> https://r12a.github.io/scripts/mongolian/v/1828m1.png.
>
> In this case, the over-riding rule as well as example words all become 
> different completely.
>
> You have to help Greg to re-verify the over-riding rule and provide 
> plenty of examples to  prove it is workable.
>
> 2.For GA medial form change request,
>
> It will impact the Greg’s over-riding rule and over-riding glyph 
> selection too.  If the dotted masculine medial form of GA 
> https://r12a.github.io/scripts/mongolian/v/182Cm1.pngcomes as first 
> medial form ( default form ),
>
> The over-riding masculine medial form (third form) should become the 
> default form with the dotted masculine medial 
> formhttps://r12a.github.io/scripts/mongolian/v/182Cm1.png.
>
> In this case, the over-riding rule as well as example words all become 
> different completely.
>
> You have to help Greg to re-verify the over-riding rule and provide 
> plenty of examples to  prove it is workable.
>
> 3.For DA medial form change request,
>
> If you change the medial form of DA 
> https://r12a.github.io/scripts/mongolian/v/1833s.png to first medial 
> form (default form) of DA, you have to consider additional over-riding 
> rule for this character.
>
> Because current first medial form of DA 
> https://r12a.github.io/scripts/mongolian/v/1833m.png, have no 
> tradition to use before vowel. In this reason, we don’t need to 
> over-ride it.
>
> But if you change the default medial form of DA to 
> https://r12a.github.io/scripts/mongolian/v/1833s.png, we have example 
> word using this medial form before consonant. For example, ᠡᠳ᠋ᠯᠡᠯ etc.
>
>

> You say your font is stable now and you don’t want to change the logic 
> of your font. But if you are refereeing, TR170 to create your fonts,
>
> is it just your mistake or preference to encode your font different 
> with all of the documents ?
>

> I do not want to say that it is not the reason of any change request 
> because they already have stable fonts in hand. I think all of font 
> maker have their own stable font in their hands.
>
> This forum is for stabilizing of the entire Mongolian Font Encoding 
> internationally in the standard base. We should follow after the 
> standard come to the conclusion.
>
> I would like to ask Badral how do you handling the word ᠡᠳ᠋ᠯᠡᠯin your 
> current existing font ? maybe you are handle it as one special spelling ?
>
> or you are not handling it at all.
>
> It is my first time to considering in this direction, We can not 
> include any design bug when we propose any kind of proposal.
>
> Thanks and regards,
>
> Jirimutu
>
> ===============================================================
>
> Almas Inc.
>
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>
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>
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>
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>
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>
> ---------------------------------------------------------------
>
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>
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>
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>
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> ===============================================================
>
> *From:*Badral S. [mailto:badral@bolorsoft.com]
> *Sent:* Friday, November 20, 2015 1:03 AM
> *To:* public-i18n-mongolian@w3.org
> *Subject:* Re: Issues with DA,NA,GA default medial variants
>
> Hi Greg,
> The "separated medial form" is not my term. I don't know what it means.
> This term has been appeared in Jirimutu's email.
>
> Badral
>
> On 19.11.2015 15:59, Greg Eck wrote:
>
>     Hi Badral,
>
>     Can you give an image of the “separated medial form” so that we
>     are crystal clear on which glyph we are talking about?
>
>     I am not sure what this is referring to.
>
>     Thanks,
>     Greg
>
>     >>>>>
>
>     *Sent:*Thursday, November 19, 2015 10:31 PM
>     *Subject:* Re: Issues with DA,NA,GA default medial variants
>
>     We have decided, that we don't change our implementation (BS
>     column) of medial default form of DA, NA, GA due to following reasons.
>     1. Logic and Ambiguation
>     I already mentioned the representation logic in my previous
>     emails. Now plus:
>     NA is distinguished only by dot from A.
>     GA is distinguished only by dot from QA.
>     DA is distinguished only by horizontal tie from TA.
>
>     2. Established almost no destabilization
>     As Jirimutu described there exist almost no destabilization
>     because no FVSs stored in middle of a word.
>     https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-i18n-mongolian/2015OctDec/0123.html
>     (cutting:
>
>     Actually we are not typing and storing FVS1 in the complete
>     Mongolian Word actually,
>
>     It is automatically been selecting correct display form in the word.
>
>     Only when we show the separated Medial Form individually, the FVS1
>     is necessary.
>
>     For this reason, maybe you are misunderstanding the encodings.
>
>     )
>     I didn't understand what is the separated Medial Form. If it's not
>     ISOLATED one, then we should use ZWJ or?
>     In our stem database, there exist no stem in middle form of DA,
>     NA, GA with FVSx. The most words in Greg's example are initial DA
>     which is also stored in our DB with FVS1 except suffixes. (Dun and
>     Dugnelt stored in our DB also with FVS because it's an initial
>     second form of DA.)
>     I think, the misunderstanding was established by magic of OT
>     grammar. The actual problem could be just changing OT grammar
>     rules for font developers. If someone has difficulties, we are
>     ready to help.
>     Can you accept it Jirimutu?
>
>     Greg: Please accept and update your NP column as we requested
>     unless you have contra arguments.
>
>     cheers,
>     Badral
>     >>>>>
>
>
>
>
> -- 
> Badral Sanlig, Software architect
> www.bolorsoft.com <http://www.bolorsoft.com> | www.badral.net 
> <http://www.badral.net>
> Bolorsoft LLC, Selbe Khotkhon 40/4 D2, District 11, Ulaanbaatar


-- 
Badral Sanlig, Software architect
www.bolorsoft.com | www.badral.net
Bolorsoft LLC, Selbe Khotkhon 40/4 D2, District 11, Ulaanbaatar


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Received on Friday, 20 November 2015 11:12:38 UTC

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