RE: revisiting advice in HTML on tables used for layout

Hi,

 I think the normative "not recommended" is indeed more approriate.
Nonetheless, accessibility shouldn't be pointed out as being the only
issue in using table markup for layout. Semantics,  performance and
efficiency are also points that suffer from the heavy and useless
markup of tables. All this can impact in the overall user experience
(and not only screen reader users').

We should "touch" also authors that are not -- unfortunately -
concerned by accessibility.

Cheers,

Angela Ricci

----- Original Message -----
From: "Cynthia Shelly" 
To:"Steve Faulkner" , "HTMLWG WG" 
Cc:
Sent:Thu, 30 Jan 2014 20:22:21 +0000
Subject:RE: revisiting advice in HTML on tables used for layout

	So, my understanding from my WCAG work is that most screen readers
are able to handle layout tables pretty well, and have been for some
time.  But, to be honest, I haven’t looked at it extensively in
several years.  I know it’s semantically incorrect, but is it
really a problem for users?  Maybe check with WCAG?

	 

	FROM: Steve Faulkner [mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com] 
SENT: Thursday, January 30, 2014 1:59 AM
TO: HTMLWG WG
SUBJECT: revisiting advice in HTML on tables used for layout

	 

	currently the HTML spec says:

	"Tables should not be used as layout aids. Historically, many Web
authors have tables in HTML as a way to control their page layout
making it difficult to extract tabular data from such documents. In
particular, users of accessibility tools, like screen readers, are
likely to find it very difficult to navigate pages with tables used
for layout. If a table is to be used for layout it must be marked with
the attribute role="presentation" for a user agent to properly
represent the table to an assistive technology and to properly convey
the intent of the author to tools that wish to extract tabular data
from the document

	Note:There are a variety of alternatives to using HTML tables for
layout, primarily using CSS positioning and the CSS table model.
[CSS]"

	http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/tabular-data.html#the-table-element
[1]

	Note the normative SHOULD NOT in the first sentence. 

	The spec text above is based on a decision by the HTML WG [1] 

	I am not proposing to change the normative aspect of the decision,
but would like to expand and strengthen the informative text to make
it clearer that the use of layout tables is NOT RECOMMENDED and
provide fuller explanations of the negative consequences of layout
tables.

	[1]http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Mar/0245.html
[2]

	what do others think?

	--

 Regards

 SteveF

	HTML 5.1 [3]

	       

Links:
------
[1]
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/tabular-data.html#the-table-element
[2] http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Mar/0245.html
[3] http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/