Re: 4.13.1 Bread crumb navigation - use of right angle brackets

Isn't a heading required in any sectioning content anyway?
So might as well make the 'You are here' a heading.


On 16 October 2013 10:24, Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com> wrote:

> Hi Willem,
>
> what code are you suggesting? a heading?
>
> --
>
> Regards
>
> SteveF
> HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>
>
>
> On 16 October 2013 15:22, Willem-Siebe Spoelstra <info@spoelstra.ws>wrote:
>
>> Hi Steve,
>>
>> You convinced me of the arrows and I downloaded NVDA myself also!
>> Thanks for adding <a></a> to the current page list item, and thanks to
>> Ben Barber bringing this up.
>>
>> The only thing is I still don't understand why to leave the nav element
>> unnamed. I think "You are here" is a pretty good name for this sectioning
>> content.
>>
>> Vriendelijke groet,
>>
>> Willem-Siebe Spoelstra
>>
>> Sellebrating
>> Ganeshastraat 67
>> 1363XA Almere
>> Tel: + 31 6 459 575 83
>> E-mail: info@spoelstra.ws
>> KvK-nummer: 55419038
>>
>>
>>
>> 2013/10/16 Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
>>
>>> Hi Willem,
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>>
>>> Regards
>>>
>>> SteveF
>>> HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>
>>>
>>>
>>> On 16 October 2013 14:47, Willem-Siebe Spoelstra <info@spoelstra.ws>wrote:
>>>
>>>> Hi Steve,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for the update on this.
>>>> In the explenation you still mention the 'ol',
>>>>
>>>> Authors are encouraged to markup bread-crumb navigation as an ordered
>>>>> list using the ol<http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/grouping-content.html#the-ol-element>
>>>>>  and li<http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/grouping-content.html#the-li-element>
>>>>> elements.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In this discussion different authors have different opinions, so I
>>>> would like to bring in some again.
>>>>
>>>
>>> I have changed it to say list without encouraging either one.
>>>
>>>>
>>>> 1) Why do you choose to let the sectioning nav element unnamed? The
>>>> "You are here" can better become a header to name this specific sectioning
>>>> content.
>>>> 2) This is a good comment on Jens his post:
>>>>
>>>> A breadcrumb represents a path through a tree, not the tree itself. The
>>>>> consecutive items make it clear we’re going step by step down the tree
>>>>> structure, so the path is just one-dimensional.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> In my opinion OL is still the better choice. However, when you say:
>>>>
>>>>  as in practice i think it makes little difference
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> why don't mention it is up to the author to use OL or UL?
>>>>
>>>> 3) The arrows should not be content but CSS in my opinion.
>>>>
>>>
>>> the arrows convey direction to sighted users and I think they should
>>> also convey direction to other users too, having them in text means that
>>> they are announced by AT for example. NVDA announces: (→ "right arrow")
>>>
>>> list with 4 items
>>> You are here:
>>> link
>>> Main
>>>  →
>>> link
>>> Products
>>>  →
>>> link
>>> Dishwashers
>>>  →
>>> Second hand
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>> 4) What I also don't understand is why no <a> is being used on the
>>>> current page list item, see this comment:
>>>> https://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=22739#c5
>>>>
>>>
>>> fixed that
>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Vriendelijke groet,
>>>>
>>>> Willem-Siebe Spoelstra
>>>>
>>>> Sellebrating
>>>> Ganeshastraat 67
>>>> 1363XA Almere
>>>> Tel: + 31 6 459 575 83
>>>> E-mail: info@spoelstra.ws
>>>> KvK-nummer: 55419038
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2013/10/16 Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
>>>>
>>>>> Hi all after reviewing the discussion and other input I have made some
>>>>> changes to the example:
>>>>>
>>>>> 1. have included the text label as text rather than in aria-label as i
>>>>> think it is useful for any uers.
>>>>> 2. have changed it from a OL to UL as in practice i think it makes
>>>>> little difference in this case, the relationship of precedence is provide
>>>>> by the use of the right arrows (thanks jens) to indicate path.
>>>>> 3 have added right arrows.
>>>>> 4 added note to discourage use of > angle brackets
>>>>>
>>>>> Note:
>>>>> Again, this is only an editors draft for further review it is not
>>>>> (necessarily) the final product.
>>>>> Although as sylvia points out > is often used, if we can encourage
>>>>> authors to use the right arrow which makes more sense then all the better.
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> thanks also to david mac for the test case and user feedback very
>>>>> helpful!
>>>>>
>>>>> --
>>>>>
>>>>> Regards
>>>>>
>>>>> SteveF
>>>>> HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On 26 January 2013 17:00, Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Section 4.13.1 Bread crumb navigation (under Common idioms without
>>>>>> dedicated elements [1])
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  encourages the use of the right angle bracket to indicate a
>>>>>> breadcrumb navigation trail:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <p>
>>>>>>   <a href="/">Main</a> >
>>>>>>   <a href="/products/">Products</a> >
>>>>>>   <a href="/products/dishwashers/">Dishwashers</a> >
>>>>>>   <a>Second hand</a>
>>>>>>  </p>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> The use of > in this context does not appear to be a good practice to
>>>>>> promote as the angle bracket is a symbol that depending on user agent
>>>>>> (AT in this case) is typically announced as "greater" or not announced
>>>>>> in this context. Either way it is not clearly convyed that its a
>>>>>> breadcrumb trail.
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>  It may be that this is not an issue for users who consume the angle
>>>>>> brackets in this context and the pattern of its use conveys that it is
>>>>>> a breadcrumb trail. If it is a problem I suggest that this example
>>>>>> would need to be revisited to see if we can come up with something
>>>>>> that is more useful to a wider range of users.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> [1]
>>>>>> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/common-idioms.html#common-idioms
>>>>>>
>>>>>> --
>>>>>> with regards
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Steve Faulkner
>>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>
>>>
>>
>