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Re: using strong to indicate a title?

From: Ian Devlin <ian@iandevlin.com>
Date: Tue, 7 May 2013 17:45:00 +0200
Message-ID: <CAOYOhSscDsp63jTSTNiLgvYa9Pk=XNF3VAR5jHyupkL8ApeoYw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Leif Halvard Silli <xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no>
Cc: HTMLWG WG <public-html@w3.org>
The purpose of <small> is not to demote, the specification doesn't say that
at all:
http://www.w3.org/TR/2011/WD-html5-20110525/text-level-semantics.html#the-small-element

It even goes as far as saying that it does not demote the importance of
elements within <small> that are marked up with <strong> and/or <em> and
that if you wish to mark the contents of a <small> as important it should
be wrapoed in <strong>. This implies that <small> itself has no effect on
the importance of its content.


On 7 May 2013 17:21, Leif Halvard Silli <xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no>wrote:

> Steve Faulkner, Tue, 7 May 2013 15:08:05 +0100:
> > well no it {note: <small>} wasn't which is why it was binned.
> >
> > the circumstance is where you have a title/subtitle that you want to
> > include in the 'outline' but the subtitle does not start a new
> > section/subsection
>
> Short answer:
>
> (1) <small> should be fine, of above use case. But (2) why not simply
> recommend to use <br> for this use case?
>
> Longer answer:
>
> I scanned the discussion last month about <small> - and I could not
> find any discussion of outline there. But if the <strong> proposal
> implies
>
>    <h1>Main.</h1><p>Sub.</p>
>
> when one doesn’t want it in the outline, but
>
>    <h1><strong>Main.</strong> Sub.</h1>
>
> when one does want it in the outline, then, for *that* use case,
> <small>Sub.</small> seems better than <strong>Main.</strong>, because:
>
> 1) it has intuitive CSS - getting the CSS right using <strong>,
>    would be lots of (unintuitive) work, whereas <small> is simple
>    to style, though usually not require any CSS
> 2) we are after demoting the subtitle part - and the role of
>    <small> is to demote.
> 3) with regard to the outline, it has the same effect as
>    <strong>.
> 4) the semantic change would also be more involved if we went
>    for <strong>Main</strong> as it would require both a a
>    change to <strong>, when <strong> occurs inside <hx/>, and
>    a change of <hx> when <strong> is a child.
>
> However, for the use case when the outline should contain the subtitle,
> the <br/> element ought to be possible as well. Currently spec says:[1]
>
> ]]br elements must be used only for line breaks that are actually part
> of the content, as in poems or addresses.[[
>
> And it seem to me we could just add ”or subdivided headings” in the
> last part, after the comma. We could the leave it up to authors to
> style subtitles using the elements that suites them (even using
> <small>  - if we clarifies that <small> can be used for that).
>
> [1]
>
> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/text-level-semantics.html#the-br-element
>
> Leif Halvard Silli
>
>
> > SteveF
> > HTML 5.1 <http://www.w3.org/html/wg/drafts/html/master/>
> >
> >
> > On 7 May 2013 15:02, Christopher Healey <deezignink@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> >> hgroup was perfect for just this circumstance.
> >>
> >> -Christopher
> >>
> >>
> >> On May 7, 2013, at 9:58 PM, Mallory van Achterberg <
> >> stommepoes@stommepoes.nl> wrote:
> >>
> >>> On Tue, May 07, 2013 at 09:52:09AM -0400, Denis Boudreau wrote:
> >>>> Hi all,
> >>>>
> >>>> I do like Steve's proposal using an existing element in h1 to create
> >> some sort of a hierarchy. But I must admit that the first thing that
> came
> >> to mind when reading Steve's proposal for <strong>, I wondered why the
> >> proposal wasn't for <small>. So depending on whether you want the
> smaller
> >> heading above or below the larger one, we could do either of the
> following:
> >>>>
> >>>> <h1>
> >>>> <small>Breaking News</small>
> >>>> Steve Faulkner had this crazy idea!
> >>>> </h1>
> >>>>
> >>>> <h1>
> >>>> Breaking News
> >>>> <small>Steve Faulkner had this crazy idea!</small>
> >>>> </h1>
> >>>>
> >>>> /Denis
> >>>>
> >>>
> >>> Of the two, I like the second one better. Small has always meant
> >>> "sub" in my mind, read out loud differently like legal text and
> >>> under-the-breath mutters. First example makes much less sense, since
> >>> if you just want a styling sandbag, span makes more sense.
> >>>
> >>> -Mallory
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
>
Received on Tuesday, 7 May 2013 15:45:29 UTC

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