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Re: indicating subtitles using small

From: Ian Devlin <ian@iandevlin.com>
Date: Mon, 8 Apr 2013 16:49:06 +0200
Message-ID: <CAOYOhSsCv5yHoP44=QRQCEZyFsEJSbL-aJgvT_C6jL8OwEEXDw@mail.gmail.com>
To: Mark Sadecki <msadecki@w3.org>
Cc: public-html@w3.org
I also think that <small> should not be used for this purpose.

I also think that whatever element might be used, be it a new one or a
<div> or <span>, that it should not be contained within the <h> element in
question. I think that while the subtitle/subtext is related to the title
it's not really part of it in much the same way as <label> and <input> are
related to each other but are not contained within each other.

So something like (let's assume a new element <hsub>):

<h1>Main Title</h1>
<hsub>Sub Title</hsub>

And the definition of <hsub> indicates that it automatically refers to the
nearest previous <h> element.

Alternatively a "for" attribute could also be used in much the same way as
it is for <label> and <input>.

On 8 April 2013 16:23, Mark Sadecki <msadecki@w3.org> wrote:

> On 4/7/13 5:07 PM, Mallory van Achterberg wrote:
>> On Sun, Apr 07, 2013 at 08:23:00PM +0100, Léonie Watson wrote:
>>> Steve Faulkner wrote:
>>>> “what are peoples thoughts on extending <small> to identify
>>>> subheadings/subtitles taglines etc. when used as a descendant of a hx
>>>> element?”
>>> I think it would be prudent to keep <small> for marking up  small print
>>> like
>>> legal disclaimers etc. Extending it to include taglines etc. would blur
>>> the
>>> semantics too much.
>> I like the idea of using an inline element to indicate
> subheadings/subtitles/**taglines.  However, I agree that <small> should
> be reserved for "small print" and caution against re-purposing lesser used
> elements for the purpose of indicating a tagline.  I am not in support of
> using <hgroup> to couple nested Headings to indicate a tagline relationship
> either.  I believe a solution that addressed semantics and
> usability/accessibility would involve the introduction of an inline element
> that would allow the author to include the tagline inside the Heading
> element that is being used for the original title.
> -Mark
>>> This does have echoes of the <hgroup> question though. I wonder whether
>>> it’s
>>> worth revisiting the idea of a purpose built element for taglines,
>>> straplines and the like?
>> I've been using <small> for exactly this sub-heading use for some
>> time now. While I could agree that it should be a "no" if it must
>> remain more a fine-print/legal text semantic, the reason I've been
>> using it over a span is really how I hear it in my head: the same
>> way I hear small print and often stuff in parenthesis, and for this
>> reason the text is indeed usually styled smaller (same reason legal
>> text is).
>> The fear of blurring the semantics more is, in my view, already done
>> since HTML5 making a new meaning of an old tag pretty much means
>> most developers will be using the original meaning, if any. I believe
>> the use of small for sub-thingies in headings also predates HTML5, but
>> someone would have to show evidence like Steve's hgroup research.
>> The arguments of the Bootstrap guys are not very convinving; for
>> them, any tag would do and they chose this one. Hey, they also use
>> <li> for heading tags too. If some in the WG would rather stiffen up
>> the usage of <small> to restrict this kind of random usage, I'd
>> understand. And then we'd have more reason to figure out tagline
>> solutions.
>> OT:
>> Then again I've continued using <address> for addresses, and would
>> rather the name change to reflect "webmaster contact email".
>> -Mallory

ian devlin
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Received on Monday, 8 April 2013 14:49:45 UTC

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