W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-html@w3.org > April 2013

Re: indicating subtitles using small

From: Mark Sadecki <msadecki@w3.org>
Date: Mon, 08 Apr 2013 10:23:35 -0400
Message-ID: <5162D2E7.4020801@w3.org>
To: Mallory van Achterberg <stommepoes@stommepoes.nl>
CC: public-html@w3.org
On 4/7/13 5:07 PM, Mallory van Achterberg wrote:
> On Sun, Apr 07, 2013 at 08:23:00PM +0100, Léonie Watson wrote:
>> Steve Faulkner wrote:
>>> “what are peoples thoughts on extending <small> to identify
>>> subheadings/subtitles taglines etc. when used as a descendant of a hx
>>> element?”
>> I think it would be prudent to keep <small> for marking up  small print like
>> legal disclaimers etc. Extending it to include taglines etc. would blur the
>> semantics too much.
I like the idea of using an inline element to indicate 
subheadings/subtitles/taglines.  However, I agree that <small> should be 
reserved for "small print" and caution against re-purposing lesser used 
elements for the purpose of indicating a tagline.  I am not in support 
of using <hgroup> to couple nested Headings to indicate a tagline 
relationship either.  I believe a solution that addressed semantics and 
usability/accessibility would involve the introduction of an inline 
element that would allow the author to include the tagline inside the 
Heading element that is being used for the original title.

-Mark
>>
>> This does have echoes of the <hgroup> question though. I wonder whether it’s
>> worth revisiting the idea of a purpose built element for taglines,
>> straplines and the like?
> I've been using <small> for exactly this sub-heading use for some
> time now. While I could agree that it should be a "no" if it must
> remain more a fine-print/legal text semantic, the reason I've been
> using it over a span is really how I hear it in my head: the same
> way I hear small print and often stuff in parenthesis, and for this
> reason the text is indeed usually styled smaller (same reason legal
> text is).
>
> The fear of blurring the semantics more is, in my view, already done
> since HTML5 making a new meaning of an old tag pretty much means
> most developers will be using the original meaning, if any. I believe
> the use of small for sub-thingies in headings also predates HTML5, but
> someone would have to show evidence like Steve's hgroup research.
>
> The arguments of the Bootstrap guys are not very convinving; for
> them, any tag would do and they chose this one. Hey, they also use
> <li> for heading tags too. If some in the WG would rather stiffen up
> the usage of <small> to restrict this kind of random usage, I'd
> understand. And then we'd have more reason to figure out tagline
> solutions.
>
> OT:
> Then again I've continued using <address> for addresses, and would
> rather the name change to reflect "webmaster contact email".
>
> -Mallory
>
Received on Monday, 8 April 2013 14:23:29 UTC

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