- From: Leif Halvard Silli <xn--mlform-iua@xn--mlform-iua.no>
- Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 13:31:37 +0100
- To: Kornel Lesiński <kornel@geekhood.net>, Dean Leigh <dean.leigh@deanleigh.co.uk>
- Cc: public-html@w3.org
As Silvia said, <sub> is occupied. How about <hcaption>? With <hcaption>, it obvious that it has no meaning in a section without <h1-h6> elements. And it also builds upon the name pattern that <figcaption> has initiated. I also think that <hcaption> very effectively could prevent the belief that a subheading can be used *without* any associated heading. Further more, it is already clear to most authors that a caption is not displayed in a Table of Contents/outline. The name <hsub> also has the problem that it sounds as if it has to appear *after* the element, when in reality it can also occur before it. Risk: Some might think <hcaption> could go *inside* the <h1-h6> element. Answers to the risk: * The CP says that authors optionally *may* place it inside the <h1-h6> element - which in turn would lead its content to be shown in the outline. * Since the name <hcaption> could help the author to understand that content should *not* be displayed in the outline, then - provided the author has access to something that shows the outline (*) - this problem would be solved by itself. * As for before or after, then captions are usually occur after the the thing that they caption, but may also occur before - as we know from <table>'s caption element. (*) I found a add-on for Opera that displays the outline, and I expect e.g. iCab - which has had a outline tool for long - would do the same. Leif H Silli Dean Leigh, Mon, 7 Nov 2011 07:29:08 -0000: > I think the naming of this element as <hsub> indicates and therefore > restricts its use to only being a sub Sub-Heading. > Whereas <subline> may in future be used as 'sub' to other elements > e.g. <caption>, <figcaption>. > > Therefore I would like to propose that the element be further > simplified to <sub>. > > - This addresses the semantic issues as it is a <sub> of its preceding tag > - It can be ignored in outlines > - It can be styled easily with > > > We can then which focus discussion on which tags are eligible for <sub>. > > Regards, > Dean Leigh > > >>> -----Original Message----- >>> From: Simon Pieters [mailto:simonp@opera.com] >>> Sent: 07 November 2011 06:40 >>> To: public-html@w3.org; Kornel Lesiński >>> Subject: Re: Change Proposal to replace hgroup with a simple element >>> >>> On Mon, 07 Nov 2011 00:38:32 +0100, Kornel Lesiński >>> <kornel@geekhood.net> >>> wrote: >>> >>>> >>>> I agree with Lars Gunther that reuse of <h1-h6> for subheadings causes >>>> nothing but trouble, and subheadings can be marked up in a more >>>> straightforward manner. >>>> >>>> I'd like to propose a new element that IMHO is much easier to understand >>>> and use correctly, satisfies all major use cases of <hgroup> and does >>>> not break outline in legacy UAs. >>>> >>>> The proposal is in the wiki: >>>> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/hSub >>>> >>>> ---- >>>> >>>> Change Proposal >>>> >>>> Replace <hgroup> with an element that has a simple content model and >>>> backwards compatibility. >>>> >>>> Rationale >>>> >>>> * <hgroup> overloads meaning of <h1-h6>, making them either >>>> headings included in document >>>> outline or not, depending on context created by hgroup and other >>>> headings. No other >>>> element in HTML creates such ambiguous context-dependent >>> meaning. >>>> >>>> * Name and usage of <hgroup> can be confused with <header>, since >>>> both appear in headers >>>> and group elements. >>>> >>>> * <hgroup>'s content model disallows adding extra <div>s around >>>> multiple subheadings, which >>>> may be needed as styling hooks. >>>> >>>> * Existing content on the web does not use as complex multi-level >>>> subheadings as <hgroup> >>>> was intended to support. There is no need to precisely mark up >>>> levels of subheadings, as >>>> the whole title is meant to be read in (document) order and >>>> subheadings are not used for >>>> sectioning/navigation. >>>> >>>> Details >>>> >>>> <hsub> element is a subheading. It represents a subheading for its >>>> section (i.e. it is >>>> associated with the heading in the same section that the <hsub> is >>>> in). The algorithm for >>>> associating <hsub> with a section is the same as for <h1-h6>, except >>>> <hsub> does not imply >>>> new sections. >>> >>> So basically it's associated with a section in the same way as <p>. >>> >>>> <hsub> element has same content model as <h1-h6>. >>>> >>>> Optionally: <hsub> can be allowed to be nested inside <h1-h6>, which >>>> allows full title to be >>>> seen as a header in legacy UAs and makes it easy to style heading >>>> and subheading using CSS. >>>> >>>> Examples >>>> >>>> <body> >>>> <h1>Title</h1> >>>> <hsub>Subtitle</hsub> >>>> >>>> <h1>Second Title</h1> >>>> <div> >>>> <hsub>Second Subtitle 1</hsub> >>>> <hsub>Second Subtitle 2</hsub> >>>> </div> >>>> </body> >>>> >>>> <article> >>>> <hsub>The Magical</hsub> >>>> <h1>Title</h1> >>>> <hsub>That Has</hsub> >>>> <hsub>Multiple Subtitles</hsub> >>>> </article> >>>> >>>> Styling >>>> >>>> The most common usage of subheadings can be styled simply with h1 + >>>> hsub CSS selector. >>>> Authors can make complex headers easier to select by wrapping >>>> headings and subheadings in >>>> <header>. Relaxed content model allows "styling hook" elements to be >>>> added as necessary. >>>> >>>> Authoring errors >>>> >>>> Mistakes in usage of <hsub> cannot break document outline, which is >>>> a significant improvement >>>> over <hgroup>. >>>> >>>> At worst, in a rather rare case of subtitle preceeding the title, >>>> subtitle may end up >>>> associated with an earlier heading: >>>> >>>> <h1>Unrelated title</h1> >>>> <p>Content</p> >>>> >>>> <hsub>Preceeding subtitle</hsub> >>>> <h1>Title</h1> >>>> >>>> However, this kind of mistake can be easily eliminated by use of >>>> <section>/<acticle> >>>> elements: >>>> >>>> <section> >>>> <hsub>Preceeding subtitle</hsub> >>>> <h1>Title</h1> >>>> </section> >>>> >>>> Risks >>>> >>>> Removal of the <hgroup> element. >>>> >>> >>> FWIW, I think this proposal is better than the <p>-in-<header> proposal >>> (which changes meaning of <p> based on placement) and the <subline> >>> proposal (which allows <h2> in <subline> so still breaks the outline in >>> legacy impl). >>> >>> My only concern with this proposal is whether <hsub> should be allowed >>> "anywhere" or if it should be restricted in some way (e.g. require a >>> heading in its section, don't allow it in implied sections unless it is >>> follows the heading element directly). >>> >>> -- >>> Simon Pieters >>> Opera Software >
Received on Monday, 7 November 2011 12:32:23 UTC