W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-html@w3.org > November 2011

RE: Change Proposal to replace hgroup with a simple element > Naming and use

From: Dean Leigh <dean.leigh@deanleigh.co.uk>
Date: Mon, 7 Nov 2011 07:29:08 -0000
Message-ID: <1174F8ED82AF7048905B3241C81BF17B029DF9C2@HEMV1AUKER.he.local>
To: <public-html@w3.org>
I think the naming of this element as <hsub> indicates and therefore restricts its use to only being a sub Sub-Heading.
Whereas <subline> may in future be used as 'sub' to other elements e.g. <caption>, <figcaption>.

Therefore I would like to propose that the element be further simplified to <sub>.

- This addresses the semantic issues as it is a <sub> of its preceding tag
- It can be ignored in outlines
- It can be styled easily with >

We can then which focus discussion on which tags are eligible for <sub>.

Dean Leigh

>>-----Original Message-----
>>From: Simon Pieters [mailto:simonp@opera.com]
>>Sent: 07 November 2011 06:40
>>To: public-html@w3.org; Kornel Lesiński
>>Subject: Re: Change Proposal to replace hgroup with a simple element
>>On Mon, 07 Nov 2011 00:38:32 +0100, Kornel Lesiński
>>> I agree with Lars Gunther that reuse of <h1-h6> for subheadings causes
>>> nothing but trouble, and subheadings can be marked up in a more
>>> straightforward manner.
>>> I'd like to propose a new element that IMHO is much easier to understand
>>> and use correctly, satisfies all major use cases of <hgroup> and does
>>> not break outline in legacy UAs.
>>> The proposal is in the wiki:
>>> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/hSub

>>> ----
>>> Change Proposal
>>>     Replace <hgroup> with an element that has a simple content model and
>>> backwards compatibility.
>>> Rationale
>>>       * <hgroup> overloads meaning of <h1-h6>, making them either
>>> headings included in document
>>>         outline or not, depending on context created by hgroup and other
>>> headings. No other
>>>         element in HTML creates such ambiguous context-dependent
>>>       * Name and usage of <hgroup> can be confused with <header>, since
>>> both appear in headers
>>>         and group elements.
>>>       * <hgroup>'s content model disallows adding extra <div>s around
>>> multiple subheadings, which
>>>         may be needed as styling hooks.
>>>       * Existing content on the web does not use as complex multi-level
>>> subheadings as <hgroup>
>>>         was intended to support. There is no need to precisely mark up
>>> levels of subheadings, as
>>>         the whole title is meant to be read in (document) order and
>>> subheadings are not used for
>>>         sectioning/navigation.
>>> Details
>>>     <hsub> element is a subheading. It represents a subheading for its
>>> section (i.e. it is
>>>     associated with the heading in the same section that the <hsub> is
>>> in). The algorithm for
>>>     associating <hsub> with a section is the same as for <h1-h6>, except
>>> <hsub> does not imply
>>>     new sections.
>>So basically it's associated with a section in the same way as <p>.
>>>     <hsub> element has same content model as <h1-h6>.
>>>     Optionally: <hsub> can be allowed to be nested inside <h1-h6>, which
>>> allows full title to be
>>>     seen as a header in legacy UAs and makes it easy to style heading
>>> and subheading using CSS.
>>>    Examples
>>>   <body>
>>>   <h1>Title</h1>
>>>   <hsub>Subtitle</hsub>
>>>   <h1>Second Title</h1>
>>>   <div>
>>>       <hsub>Second Subtitle 1</hsub>
>>>       <hsub>Second Subtitle 2</hsub>
>>>   </div>
>>>   </body>
>>>   <article>
>>>       <hsub>The Magical</hsub>
>>>       <h1>Title</h1>
>>>       <hsub>That Has</hsub>
>>>       <hsub>Multiple Subtitles</hsub>
>>>   </article>
>>>    Styling
>>>     The most common usage of subheadings can be styled simply with h1 +
>>> hsub CSS selector.
>>>     Authors can make complex headers easier to select by wrapping
>>> headings and subheadings in
>>>     <header>. Relaxed content model allows "styling hook" elements to be
>>> added as necessary.
>>>    Authoring errors
>>>     Mistakes in usage of <hsub> cannot break document outline, which is
>>> a significant improvement
>>>     over <hgroup>.
>>>     At worst, in a rather rare case of subtitle preceeding the title,
>>> subtitle may end up
>>>     associated with an earlier heading:
>>>   <h1>Unrelated title</h1>
>>>   <p>Content</p>
>>>   <hsub>Preceeding subtitle</hsub>
>>>   <h1>Title</h1>
>>>     However, this kind of mistake can be easily eliminated by use of
>>> <section>/<acticle>
>>>     elements:
>>>   <section>
>>>     <hsub>Preceeding subtitle</hsub>
>>>     <h1>Title</h1>
>>>   </section>
>>> Risks
>>>     Removal of the <hgroup> element.
>>FWIW, I think this proposal is better than the <p>-in-<header> proposal
>>(which changes meaning of <p> based on placement) and the <subline>
>>proposal (which allows <h2> in <subline> so still breaks the outline in
>>legacy impl).
>>My only concern with this proposal is whether <hsub> should be allowed
>>"anywhere" or if it should be restricted in some way (e.g. require a
>>heading in its section, don't allow it in implied sections unless it is
>>follows the heading element directly).
>>Simon Pieters
>>Opera Software

Received on Monday, 7 November 2011 07:31:56 UTC

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