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Re: hgroup and ARIA outline in ISSUE-129 [Was: SSUE-129: replace or modify the ARIA section of the HTML5 spec - chnage proposal and replacement spec text]

From: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Date: Mon, 29 Nov 2010 07:31:51 +0800
Message-ID: <AANLkTinPGv1ajnUkrua-MFYSumRE=p6zZ48E67L9+q=b@mail.gmail.com>
To: Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis <bhawkeslewis@googlemail.com>
Cc: Bruce Lawson <brucel@opera.com>, HTMLWG WG <public-html@w3.org>, Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>, Paul Cotton <Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com>, Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net>, Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com>, Cynthia Shelly <cyns@microsoft.com>, "Michael(tm) Smith" <mike@w3.org>, Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net>
hi benjamin,

i quoted it in my previous email:
"For the purposes of document summaries, outlines, and the like, the text of
hgroup elements is defined to be the text of the highest ranked
h1h6element descendant of the
hgroup element"
http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/sections.html#the-hgroup-element

and if it is not different for the normal view, then how is the content to
be presented to users of AT in the 5 scenarios I outlined and what effect
does this have on the default mappings as currently outlined in the spec?
keep in mind as currently specced H1-H6 inside HGROUP do not have any
default mappings and can have any roles assigned.

regards
Stevef

On 29 November 2010 07:20, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis <
bhawkeslewis@googlemail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 10:40 PM, Bruce Lawson <brucel@opera.com> wrote:
> > The complexity is that the outlining algorithm and the "normal" browser
> view
> > are different.
> >
> > <hgroup>
> > <h1>Acme Widgets PLC</h1>
> > <h2>The finest Widgets that wonga can buy</h2>
> > </hgroup>
> >
> > has 2 headings in "normal" full page view - the h1 and the h2. It doesn't
> > make sense for hgroup to also be a heading.
> >
> > The code above, however, has only one heading ("Acme Widgets") for the
> > purposes of constructing an outline; the <h2> is removed from the
> document
> > outline as the outlining algorithm requires. But is still makes no sense
> to
> > me for the <hgroup> to have any ARIA/Accessibility API mapping. It does
> > nothing in itself, it just tweaks the semantics of its contents in one
> > specific circumstance - the "outline view".
>
> Elsewhere in this thread, I've quoted the spec text that explicitly
> says that "hgroup" represents a heading for a section and that the hX
> elements inside an "hgroup" only represent subtitles, one of which
> contributes the text for the heading for the section.
>
> If you disagree about what the spec says (as opposed to what it
> /should/ say), can you please quote the spec text that defines how the
> semantics of "hgroup" somehow change when presented in "normal" view?
>
> > (I have considerable misgivings about <hgroup> anyway; as I speak at
> events
> > etc, everyone finds the concept hard to grasp. I wonder whether the
> presence
> > of two or more headings h1 ... h6 within one single <header> isn't enough
> to
> > make the outlining algorithm to magically ignore the lower-hierarchy Hx
> > elements without needing another element to do it)
>
> I too have qualms about HTML5's use of hX elements.
>
> *But* HTML5 semantics should be reflected not misrepresented by
> accessibility API mappings.
>
> If the semantics are wrong in the first place, then let's fix them at
> source.
>
> --
> Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis
>



-- 
with regards

Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG Europe
Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium

www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org
Web Accessibility Toolbar -
http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
Received on Sunday, 28 November 2010 23:32:45 UTC

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