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Re: hgroup and ARIA outline in ISSUE-129 [Was: SSUE-129: replace or modify the ARIA section of the HTML5 spec - chnage proposal and replacement spec text]

From: Steve Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
Date: Sun, 28 Nov 2010 19:47:49 +0800
Message-ID: <AANLkTimAJjyQ_S72SjQqb2BwcRnFAS_jHuByjxL4uewj@mail.gmail.com>
To: Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis <bhawkeslewis@googlemail.com>
Cc: HTMLWG WG <public-html@w3.org>, Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>, Paul Cotton <Paul.Cotton@microsoft.com>, Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net>, Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com>, Cynthia Shelly <cyns@microsoft.com>, "Michael(tm) Smith" <mike@w3.org>, Janina Sajka <janina@rednote.net>
hi ben,
I am not proposing that hgroup is ignored, I am suggesting that in the
context of a user of AT moving through page content, as against accessing
and naviagting via a page outline, the presence of the hgroup as a heading
does not make sense.

could you provide details of how your example should be conveyed to an AT
user if they are using the cursor keys to move through content as against
navigating via an outline?

<h1>A problem solved</h1>
<h2>Introduction</h2>
<p>Text for introduction section goes here</p>
<hgroup>
 <h3>Analysis</h3>
 <h2>The problem</h2>
 <h2>A mathematical model</h2>
</hgroup>
<p>Text for problem section goes here</p>
<h2>Solution</h2>
<p>Text for problem section goes here.</p>




Also I  thought that the oultine would be processed by the browser rathert
han handing it off to AT fior processing.


regards
stevef



On 28 November 2010 17:32, Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis <
bhawkeslewis@googlemail.com> wrote:

> On Sun, Nov 28, 2010 at 8:50 AM, Steve Faulkner
> <faulkner.steve@gmail.com> wrote:
> > looking at this futher I have come to the conclusion that the hgroup
> element
> > should not have any default role as its only purpose is in relation to
> > hiding sub headings from the outline algorithm. When a page is presented
> to
> > user a in the browsing context any heading elements the hgroup contains
> > should be presented with their semantics intact. The semantics of the
> hgroup
> > is not relevant in this context.
> >
> > For the purposes of the outline algorithm the default role mapping to
> > accessibility APIs appears irrelevant.
>
> In ARIA, a "heading" is "A heading for a section of the page" with a
> position in a "logical outline".
>
> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria/roles#heading
>
> In HTML5, "Other elements of heading content in the hgroup element
> indicate subheadings or subtitles" as opposed to representing
> "represent headings for their sections" like standalone hX elements
> and "hgroup":
>
>
> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/sections.html#the-h1-h2-h3-h4-h5-and-h6-elements
>
> http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/sections.html#the-hgroup-element
>
> Mapping "hgroup" to anything other than "heading", and mapping hX
> elements in "hgroup" to "heading", changes rather than preserves their
> semantics.
>
> Assistive technology uses heading roles exposed to accessibility APIs
> to represent and navigate document outlines (e.g. the list of headings
> and ability to jump between headings provided by popular screen
> readers).
>
> The document outline presented and navigated by the user agent and the
> document outline exposed to accessibility APIs for
> presentation/navigation by assistive technology should be the same.
>
> Consider a case where you have markup like:
>
> <h1>A problem solved</h1>
> <h2>Introduction</h2>
> <p>Text for introduction section goes here</p>
> <hgroup>
>  <h3>Analysis</h3>
>  <h2>The problem</h2>
>  <h2>A mathematical model</h2>
> </hgroup>
> <p>Text for problem section goes here</p>
> <h2>Solution</h2>
> <p>Text for problem section goes here.</p>
>
> HTML5 tells us the document outline is:
>
> Level 1: A problem solved
>    Level 2: Introduction
>    Level 2: The problem
>    Level 2: Solution
>
> But if we ignored "hgroup" as you propose, AT would work with a quite
> different outline like:
>
> Level 1: A problem solved
>    Level 2: Introduction
>        Level 3: Analysis
>    Level 2: The problem
>    Level 2: A mathematical model
>    Level 2: Solution
>
> "Level 3: Analysis" has no associated section text, and indeed has
> been moved into the wrong section.
>
> "Level 2: The problem" and "Level 2: A mathematical model" imply two
> distinct sections but in fact there's only one.
>
> In effect, the document structure has been significantly misrepresented.
>
> --
> Benjamin Hawkes-Lewis
>



-- 
with regards

Steve Faulkner
Technical Director - TPG Europe
Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium

www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org
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Received on Sunday, 28 November 2010 11:48:44 UTC

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