- From: Steven Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
- Date: Tue, 19 Jan 2010 13:42:14 +0000
- To: "Dr. Olaf Hoffmann" <Dr.O.Hoffmann@gmx.de>
- Cc: public-html@w3.org
- Message-ID: <55687cf81001190542jc1468c5k4d3c9cab18791c77@mail.gmail.com>
hi Olaf, thanks for the feedback. >I think, the section 6 contains improper markup (and problematic content). >Poetry or a stanza/strophe is embedded in a p element. >The current draft of HTML5 as previous versions of HTML notes, >that p represents a paragraph. Paragraphs are prose and no >poetry and cannot contain any substructures like strophe-lines. The example was based pretty much on this example from the HTML5 spec: http://dev.w3.org/html5/spec/text-level-semantics.html#a-purely-decorative-image-that-doesn-t-add-any-information which is where the use of the image the poem and the use of <p> for poetry comes from. I guessed since it was written by the editor it was conforming HTML5. I did a little digging and found this post about poetry in HTML5 http://blog.signified.com.au/a-poem-element-for-html5/ in which a thread from the what wg mailing list on the subject and your discussions are cited. I would encourage you to follow lauras advice (in the following email) about filing a bug on the W3C html5 spec in regards to poetry markup. >My suggestion is to use either another format to markup >literature/text properly or to use divs with RDFa or some other >mechanism to indicate the role of the divs. >Especially for a non visual representation it is for many >people pretty confusing/depressing, if poetry is presented as prose >(I know this personally, because one of my nephews tends to >recite poetry much like prose ;o) As this example is about text alternatives for images not about how to mark up poetry, I would prefer not to include mark up that is extraneous to the purpose. I would also suggest that using divs and RDFa would not currently provide any benefit for none visual representations. >Another problem may occur with the relation of h1, h2, image >and stanza. The current order implies more or less, that >Alfred Lord Tennyson is the author of the poem, the image >and the alternative text - is this really true? >Some metadata (RDF) might be necessary to put the >relations correct. I will try to modify the example to make it clearer, the use of RDF in the context of this example i consider is out of scope. >This problem is only slightly better handled with example 6.2 >due to the hyperlink (not only because it points to an error 404 page). the example URL is made up, the actual URL was, I considered, too long and was not needed for the example code, but it is linked in the explanation above the example code [ http://www.tate.org.uk/servlet/ViewWork?cgroupid=-1&workid=15984&searchid=false&roomid=false&tabview=text&texttype=10 ] do you think it would be better to include this link in the code? >Is there a mechanism currently to relate metadata to the >value of an attribute like alt? If not, it might be better to >replace the old img with a new element with the >possibility to contain the alternative text as element content, >including metadata about the content ;o) Not that I know of. If we replace the image then it is no longer an example of providing text laternatives for images (<img>) :-) >The sample seems to be already old enough to be public >domain, therefore it is at least not really problematic for the >draft to blur all these relations. However, if the sample is >intended to be useful for current works, one has to put those relations somewhere due to copyright restrictions - and even >without, I think, the works of authors should be always >honoured by putting the relations correctly. i understand your concern, do you think it may be better not to use this image and associated poetry? best regards Stevef 2010/1/18 Dr. Olaf Hoffmann <Dr.O.Hoffmann@gmx.de> > I think, the section 6 contains improper markup (and problematic content). > Poetry or a stanza/strophe is embedded in a p element. > The current draft of HTML5 as previous versions of HTML notes, > that p represents a paragraph. Paragraphs are prose and no > poetry and cannot contain any substructures like strophe-lines. > > My suggestion is to use either another format to markup > literature/text properly or to use divs with RDFa or some other > mechanism to indicate the role of the divs. > Especially for a non visual representation it is for many > people pretty confusing/depressing, if poetry is presented as prose > (I know this personally, because one of my nephews tends to > recite poetry much like prose ;o) > > > Another problem may occur with the relation of h1, h2, image > and stanza. The current order implies more or less, that > Alfred Lord Tennyson is the author of the poem, the image > and the alternative text - is this really true? > Some metadata (RDF) might be necessary to put the > relations correct. > > This problem is only slightly better handled with example 6.2 > due to the hyperlink (not only because it points to an error 404 page). > > > According to wikipedia > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Lady_of_Shalott > the image seems to show a replication > of an image of John William Waterhouse, not from > Alfred Lord Tennyson, while the alternative text is maybe > from another person, what means, it is effectively an > interpretation of the image, not neccessarily representing > the intentions of the image author. Still it can be an alternative > for the image, however not related directly to the author of > the poem or the image... > > Is there a mechanism currently to relate metadata to the > value of an attribute like alt? If not, it might be better to > replace the old img with a new element with the > possibility to contain the alternative text as element content, > including metadata about the content ;o) > > The sample seems to be already old enough to be public > domain, therefore it is at least not really problematic for the > draft to blur all these relations. However, if the sample is > intended to be useful for current works, one has to put those > relations somewhere due to copyright restrictions - and even > without, I think, the works of authors should be always > honoured by putting the relations correctly. > > > Related discussion about the poetry problem of HTML in the wiki: > http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/PoeticSemantics > > > Olaf > > > > -- with regards Steve Faulkner Technical Director - TPG Europe Director - Web Accessibility Tools Consortium www.paciellogroup.com | www.wat-c.org Web Accessibility Toolbar - http://www.paciellogroup.com/resources/wat-ie-about.html
Received on Tuesday, 19 January 2010 13:43:08 UTC