W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-html@w3.org > February 2010

Re: Integration of HTM

From: Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com>
Date: Fri, 5 Feb 2010 18:25:37 -0600
To: Jonas Sicking <jonas@sicking.cc>
Cc: Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>, "public-html@w3.org" <public-html@w3.org>, public-html-request@w3.org
Message-ID: <OF49905667.268CA355-ON862576C1.008323EE-862576C2.0002585C@us.ibm.com>

David gave consensus agreement in a vote we had on Monday. David had second
thoughts and expressed them to me today. It happens and is part of the
process of solving problems. Don't assume that I manufactured statements
from members, Jonas, because David has concerns about a proposal after the
fact. That is not consistent with W3C process and I don't operate that way.

Earlier this week we started working on design issues around using
<accessible> and I spoke with David today. We are looking for an
alternative way, to having an <accessible> DOM within <canvas>, to make
canvas directly accessible as many users would prefer this approach. It
does not mean that fallback content would be used to do this. David said he
would be doing prototype work on his approach for next week. Make no
mistake about it that making canvas directly accessible has its challenges
but it can be done using the <accessible> DOM approach in many instances.

We agreed that we can't just afford to punt on the concept of a directly
accessible <canvas> as too many end users will want to have this. In HTML
4.01 the W3C made similar errors with JavaScript and CSS and said you had
to be accessible with either technology turned off. Developers were saddled
with these handcuffs for over a decade. HTML 5 is too important to industry
to have these restrictions again. You will find that I tend to put options
into developers hands to make things accessible vs. sticking my head in the
sand on it, which in my mind was how we addressed JavaScript accessibility.

To give you an example of what I am talking about regarding how developers
might use canvas,  I was in a meeting with IBM research on HTML 5 and the
first words out of their mouths was: Canvas is great and we can now take
HTML controls and render them using a canvas UI. I am not saying that I am
in favor of that approach but I am realistic in knowing that if there is a
way to be creative a developer will do it.


Rich Schwerdtfeger
Distinguished Engineer, SWG Accessibility Architect/Strategist

             Jonas Sicking                                                 
             >                                                          To 
             02/04/2010 05:18          Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS      
             PM                                                         cc 
                                       Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>,         
                                       Re: Integration of HTM              

Hi Richard,

So I talked with David Bolter about his feelings regarding this proposal.
Apparently he has expressed concern about the complexity of this proposal
and did not back up the statement that this had "agreement from the Mozilla
accessibility people".

He had however agreed to look at implementing a prototype of this proposal.

/ Jonas

On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 9:59 AM, Richard Schwerdtfeger <schwer@us.ibm.com>
  I have agreement from the Mozilla accessibility people and the Apple
  accessibility people who actually attend the calls and do the work.

  Rich Schwerdtfeger
  Distinguished Engineer, SWG Accessibility Architect/Strategist

  Inactive hide details for Jonas Sicking ---02/04/2010 11:05:59 AM---On
  Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Richard Schwerdtfeger < schJonas Sicking
  ---02/04/2010 11:05:59 AM---On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Richard
  Schwerdtfeger < schwer@us.ibm.com
                         g                                              To 
                         nas        Richard Schwerdtfeger/Austin/IBM@IBMUS 
                         cki                                            cc 
                         cc>        Ian Hickson <?ian@hixie.ch>, "?,       
                                    public-html@w3.org" <                  
                         02/        public-html-request@w3.org             
                         201                                       Subject 
                         11:        Re: Integration of HTM                 

  On Thu, Feb 4, 2010 at 8:35 AM, Richard Schwerdtfeger <,schwer@us.ibm.com
  > wrote:

        The group has heard your comments. We don't agree with you. I am
        not going to have another email discussion dragged into the weeds
        like what has happened on summary. I think we have had adequate
        discussion on the topic and this will be part of the proposal we go
        forward with.

        We have agreement from Apple, Microsoft, IBM, and Mozilla and we
        are working on an implementation.

  Please note that there is no such thing as "agreement from Mozilla". The
  mozilla community is composed of individuals that often differ in
  opinion. In matters of web standards we usually don't form an "official
  mozilla position" or any thing like that. So while there very well might
  be people at mozilla that support this proposal, it is not "agreement
  from Mozilla".

  Personally I have the same reaction as Ian.

  I'll also note that Maciej is from Apple and appears not to like this
  proposal either. However I don't know what Apples policy is on these

  Best Regards,
  Jonas Sicking

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Received on Saturday, 6 February 2010 00:26:21 UTC

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