- From: Jonas Sicking <jonas@sicking.cc>
- Date: Wed, 25 Feb 2009 12:19:27 -0800
- To: David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net>
- Cc: Maciej Stachowiak <mjs@apple.com>, Sam Ruby <rubys@intertwingly.net>, Robert J Burns <rob@robburns.com>, Ian Hickson <ian@hixie.ch>, "Gregory J. Rosmaita" <oedipus@hicom.net>, Leif Halvard Silli <lhs@malform.no>, James Graham <jgraham@opera.com>, Joshue O Connor <joshue.oconnor@cfit.ie>, Steve Axthelm <steveax@pobox.com>, Steven Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>, Simon Pieters <simonp@opera.com>, HTMLWG <public-html@w3.org>, wai-xtech@w3.org, wai-liaison@w3.org, janina@rednote.net, Dan Connolly <connolly@w3.org>, Matt Morgan-May <mattmay@adobe.com>, Julian Reschke <julian.reschke@gmx.de>, "W3C WAI Protocols & Formats" <w3c-wai-pf@w3.org>
On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 12:10 PM, David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net> wrote: > could @summary not be taught to display to all? Sure, but it currently isn't. Where and how are you proposing it is displayed? One thing to note is that I don't have particular strong opinions on this whole subject at all as I don't feel that I'm educated enough on the needs of various AT users. All I can do is to listen to the proposals people make and the problems other people point out in those proposals. / Jonas > On Feb 25, 2009, at 3:07 PM, Jonas Sicking wrote: > > On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 12:03 PM, David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net> > wrote: >> >> what is the difference between your paragraph and what we already have? >> how >> would it improve on @summary? > > The advantage is that the <p> is displayed to all users. Not just > users of AT clients. > > / Jonas > >> On Feb 25, 2009, at 2:59 PM, Jonas Sicking wrote: >> >> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 11:48 AM, David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net> >> wrote: >>> >>> I don't think it is possible to associate a <p> programatically</p to a >>> table. It might be possible to designate someting inside the table to >>> surve >>> the same purpurpose as @summary though. >> >> First off, i notice that you didn't answer my question *why* this is >> needed. >> >> Second, it seems like you didn't understand my suggestions for how to >> associate a <p> with the <table>. >> >> What I'm suggesting is that we could add an attribute on <table> to >> point to the element containing the summary. Such as: >> >> <p id="thisIsTheSummary"> >> Summary goes here >> </p> >> <table summary-in="thisIsTheSummary"> >> ... >> </table> >> >> This way the AT client can find the summary associated with a particular >> table. >> >>> I also want to point out that I consider it a grose miss use of >>> @summary="" >>> required to pass a test as well, miss use. >> >> I don't understand what you're saying here. >> >>> I appreciate the efforts on this but also hear and echo the conerns of >>> others that we *really* need to have a good replacement or modify >>> @summary >>> to do what we need for it to do. >> >> I don't think anyone disagrees with this. >> >> / Jonas >> >>> On Feb 25, 2009, at 2:37 PM, Jonas Sicking wrote: >>> >>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 10:50 AM, David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net> >>> wrote: >>>> >>>> <p> this is a layout table. >>>> <p> there is no summary for this table... >>>> Now, where was that little d? >>> >>> I'm sorry, I don't understand the question? Could you elaborate? >>> >>>> Not picking on you but we need programatic association and clear markup >>>> which @summary provides today. >>> >>> This would indeed not be the case with the proposal to have a separate >>> paragraph (marked up with a <p>) before or after the table. >>> >>> Could you elaborate on why this is needed? >>> >>> If we added an attribute like summaryfor="idOfTable" to the <p>, would >>> that address all the problems you have with this proposed solution? Or >>> adding a summaryIn="idOfPara" on the <table>. I'm not suggesting this >>> as a solution, merely trying to understand your complaints with the >>> <p> solution. >>> >>> Also, this problem (if it indeed is a problem) does not seem to exist >>> with any of the other solutions proposed. Maciej listed many more than >>> I did. >>> >>> / Jonas >>> >>>> On Feb 25, 2009, at 1:42 PM, Jonas Sicking wrote: >>>> >>>> On Wed, Feb 25, 2009 at 9:23 AM, David Poehlman <poehlman1@comcast.net> >>>> wrote: >>>>> >>>>> What actually mystifies me and I've been following every nuounce of the >>>>> conversation over a long span on several lists is that there has not >>>>> been >>>>> shown to be anything satisfactorily demonstrated to replace what can be >>>>> and >>>>> has been used as such an accessibility enhancing attribute as @summary. >>>> >>>> Two suggestions I've seen so far are: >>>> >>>> * Use a <p> above the table describing the contents of the table. >>>> * Change the definition of <caption> to not just be the title of the >>>> table to also be allowed to contain a summary. >>>> >>>> Both these have the advantage if adding accessibility to all users >>>> rather than just ones that use AT clients. >>>> >>>> Another suggestion I've thought about is using the table@title >>>> attribute. Title attributes are already often used to add descriptive >>>> information out-of-flow. And title attributes are generally available >>>> in visual UAs in the form of tooltips. >>>> >>>> / Jonas >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> -- >>>> Jonnie Appleseed >>>> with his >>>> Hands-On Technolog(eye)s >>>> reducing technology's disabilities >>>> one byte at a time >>>> >>>> >>> >>> >>> >>> -- >>> Jonnie Appleseed >>> with his >>> Hands-On Technolog(eye)s >>> reducing technology's disabilities >>> one byte at a time >>> >>> >> >> >> >> -- >> Jonnie Appleseed >> with his >> Hands-On Technolog(eye)s >> reducing technology's disabilities >> one byte at a time >> >> > > -- > Jonnie Appleseed > with his > Hands-On Technolog(eye)s > reducing technology's disabilities > one byte at a time > >
Received on Wednesday, 25 February 2009 20:20:10 UTC