- From: Michael(tm) Smith <mike@w3.org>
- Date: Fri, 25 Jan 2008 03:34:04 +0900
- To: public-html@w3.org
- Message-ID: <20080124183402.GH18827@sideshowbarker>
http://www.w3.org/2008/01/24-html-wg-minutes.html
Agenda
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-wg-announce/2008JanMar/0011.html
See also: IRC log
http://www.w3.org/2008/01/24-html-wg-irc
Present
Julian, Sam_Kuper, DanC, anne, MikeSmith, shepazu, Gregory,
ChrisWilson, Samuel
Regrets
Marcin
Chair
DanC
Scribe
MikeSmith
* Topics
1. agenda bashing
2. Convene HTML WG teleconference of 2008-01-24T17:00:00Z
3. scope, requirements, and modularity
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/products/2
4. follow-up on the HTML 5 release, handling comments
5. heartbeat requirement
6. HTML 5 authoring guide
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/products/5
7. aria-role ISSUE-14 (edit)
8. next meeting... 31 Jan?
9. phrase-level and semantic element discussion...
separate mailing list?
* Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
agenda bashing
DanC: going around the table in Zakim order
Julian: I'm interested in talking about the modularity issue
Sam: I have no preferences at the moment, first telcon I've joined,
I have no preferences
DanC: I think the HTML5 spec release is worth a little partying
shepazu: interested in modularity but I don't want to drive the
meeting
Convene HTML WG teleconference of 2008-01-24T17:00:00Z
DanC: I need to be out of here at 12:00 central
scope, requirements, and modularity
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/products/2
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/products/2
<DanC> Simple things make firm foundations
http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/01/modularity.html
DanC: one side note related to modularity is in W3 Q&A weblog
<DanC> TAG blog
http://www.w3.org/blog/tag/
DanC: from W3C Director Tim Berners-Lee
<oedipus> http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/01/modularity.html
http://www.w3.org/QA/2008/01/modularity.html
anne: I read that as saying that it could be *implemented* in a
modular way
... not necessarily written in a modular way
<DanC> action-13?
<trackbot-ng> ACTION-13 -- Chris Wilson to talk to WebAPI and WAF
WGs about their role in offline API stuff and how they work with and
contribute to the discussion -- due 2008-02-05 -- OPEN
<trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/13
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/13
ChrisWilson: no progress on that yet
<DanC> action-14?
<trackbot-ng> ACTION-14 -- Chris Wilson to get more information on
MS patent review with <canvas> -- due 2008-03-01 -- OPEN
<trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/14
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/14
ChrisWilson: This obviously is in progress but I won't have anything
to say until our legal team gets back
... March 1st is probably before they will be done, but I don't want
to drop it
<DanC> action-14?
<trackbot-ng> ACTION-14 -- Chris Wilson to get more information on
MS patent review with <canvas> -- due 2008-05-01 -- OPEN
<trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/14
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/14
<DanC> action-27?
<trackbot-ng> ACTION-27 -- Dan Connolly to draft a Memorandum of
Understanding (MoU) with microformats.org regarding @rel values --
due 2008-01-31 -- OPEN
<trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/27
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/27
DanC: a little progress on this ...
... I talked with Rigo Wenning
... he's interested in having the registry at W3C
... also David Orchard of BEA
... I continue to investigate the microformats.org
... wondering for example what would happen if they get sued
<DanC> action-38?
<trackbot-ng> ACTION-38 -- Dan Connolly to chairs to review need for
amending charter with Director -- due 2008-01-24 -- OPEN
<trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/38
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/38
DanC: hmm, due today... I guess we're not done with that
ChrisWilson: right, I don't think we've reached a conclusion on that
DanC: I'm gonna get progress on that in the next week, most likely
<DanC> action-41?
<trackbot-ng> ACTION-41 -- Dan Connolly to consider a new
requirements issue about the overlap with HTTP -- due 2008-01-10 --
PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/41
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/41
DanC: time with ... Tim maybe today
<DanC> action-28?
<trackbot-ng> ACTION-28 -- Dan Connolly to consult with the
Hypertext CG and W3C management about how much time W3C member
organizations should be allowed to study the patent implications of
an HTML 5 spec 1st WD -- due 2007-12-19 -- CLOSED
<trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/28
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/28
<DanC> issue-28?
<trackbot-ng> ISSUE-28 -- Content type rules in HTML 5 overlaps with
the HTTP specification? -- OPEN
<trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/28
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/28
DanC: basically, I almost did an Internet Draft back in August
... I've not checked what impact if any this might have on the HTML
spec
trackbot-ng, close action-41
<trackbot-ng> ACTION-41 Consider a new requirements issue about the
overlap with HTTP closed
DanC: Julian, you expressed some interest in that?
Julian: the content-type sniffing thing?
DanC: yeah
Julian: yeah, let's talk about it now
... issue is that HTML spec mandates content-type sniffing ...
... while the HTTP spec and TAG document prohibit it
DanC: I would really like a test case
Julian: I think Ian Hickson has a big set of test cases
... related to this
Hixie ?
DanC: anybody got a URL for that?
<Julian> test cases:
http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/
http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/
DanC: would like EARL reports on these
... would like review by the HTTP working group
Julian: We have the argument that, on the one hand, the specs
require to trust the content-type that is given
... but the HTML spec requiring UAs not to do that
<gsnedders> Julian: didn't you mean
http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/sniffing/ ?
http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/sniffing/
Julian: also the ongoing discussing about if a UA is required to
report discrepancies if it does sniffing and finds them
<DanC> trackbot-ng, status
<gsnedders> (the ones in the parent folder merely check it obeys the
given content-type in some cases)
<Julian> gsnedders: yeah
<DanC> . ACTION: Julian to investigate expected results to
http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/ tests in
collaboration with the IETF HTTP WG
http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/
<gsnedders> DanC:
http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/sniffing/ it
should be
http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/sniffing/
<DanC> ACTION: Julian to investigate expected results to
http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/sniffing/
tests in collaboration with the IETF HTTP WG [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2008/01/24-html-wg-minutes.html#action01]
http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/sniffing/
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-44 - Investigate expected results to
http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/sniffing/
tests in collaboration with the IETF HTTP WG [on Julian Reschke -
due 2008-01-31].
http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/sniffing/
Julian: looking at that, it seems like the tests may actually have
expected results stated
<DanC> ACTION: Dan to developer EARL/hReview reports based on
http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/sniffing/ from
a handful of user agents [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2008/01/24-html-wg-minutes.html#action02]
http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/sniffing/
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-45 - Developer EARL/hReview reports
based on
http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/sniffing/ from
a handful of user agents [on Dan Connolly - due 2008-01-31].
http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/sniffing/
DanC: so much for that
<DanC> issue-29?
<trackbot-ng> ISSUE-29 -- Should the HTML 5 specification introduce
URI schemes such as javascript:? -- OPEN
<trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/29
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/29
DanC: I might have jumped the gun on this on a little bit
<gsnedders> for javascript: the normal parsing rules for URIs can't
apply, because it relies on all kinds of behaviour
DanC: anne clarified that there may be a separate draft spec related
to this
<ChrisWilson> hmmm...that explains why I wasn't getting any updates.
DanC: we should decide as a working group whether that's in scope
... anybody want to take action on that?
anne: what kind of action?
shepazu: leaving it in the "someday" pile means it stays in the spec
...
<DanC> (roll call isn't critical for this meeting, since decisions
aren't binding)
<anne>
http://www.websitedev.de/ietf/draft-hoehrmann-javascript-ri-00.t
xt
http://www.websitedev.de/ietf/draft-hoehrmann-javascript-ri-00.txt
<anne> October 28, 2006
anne: there is no "01"
DanC: somebody should ping Bjoern about it
Julian: yeah, I can do that
... I think the javascript URI thing never went anywhere ...
... because nobody agreed it could [identify] a resource
<DanC> ACTION: Julian ask B. Hoehrmann about any plans to update
http://www.websitedev.de/ietf/draft-hoehrmann-javascript-ri-00.t
xt [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2008/01/24-html-wg-minutes.html#action03]
http://www.websitedev.de/ietf/draft-hoehrmann-javascript-ri-00.txt
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-46 - Ask B. Hoehrmann about any plans
to update
http://www.websitedev.de/ietf/draft-hoehrmann-javascript-ri-00.t
xt [on Julian Reschke - due 2008-01-31].
http://www.websitedev.de/ietf/draft-hoehrmann-javascript-ri-00.txt
<Julian>
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hoehrmann-javascript-scheme-00
http://tools.ietf.org/html/draft-hoehrmann-javascript-scheme-00
DanC: anybody know if javascript: is used outside of a@href ?
... used outside of HTML ?
<shepazu> I'm not sure that "javascript:" is much different in
respect to defining a resource than "data:uri"
ChrisWilson: in Favorites
anne: also in SVG
follow-up on the HTML 5 release, handling comments
DanC: user-agent community has already to my satisfaction
demonstrated that it could be used [like? as?] a URI
... anybody sees Paul Krill's article?
<oedipus> there are MANY examples in the wild of javascript: being
used as a pseudo-HREF -- javascript:var popupwin=this.window.open
etc.
http://www.infoworld.com/article/08/01/22/W3C-offers-HTML-5-draf
t_1.html
http://www.infoworld.com/article/08/01/22/W3C-offers-HTML-5-draft_1.html
<DanC> krill article
http://www.infoworld.com/archives/emailPrint.jsp?R=printThis&A=/
article/08/01/22/W3C-offers-HTML-5-draft_1.html
http://www.infoworld.com/archives/emailPrint.jsp?R=printThis&A=/article/08/01/22/W3C-offers-HTML-5-draft_1.html
[[
"The most interesting thing will be what happens when those
capabilities get into native HTML and what impact that has on the
rich Internet development market," he said. Specific plug-in
technologies are not supported on every platform, he said.
"[Thusly], as a developer I might be more interested in writing HTML
5," Hammond said.
]]
<DanC> -- Jeffrey Hammond
<DanC> not even idiot comments:
http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/08/01/22/175243.shtml
http://developers.slashdot.org/developers/08/01/22/175243.shtml
DanC: and HTML5 got on Slashdot...
<DanC> http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-comments/
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-comments/
DanC: so this publication has actually generated comments on the
public-html-comments list
... If you respond to comments there, make it clear that you are not
responding on behalf of the working group
... the only way to respond on behalf of the group is to quote an
actual working-group decision
<Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to comment on that article and to
suggest we encourage members of the WG to subscribe to the comments
list
<anne>
http://cgi.w3.org/member-bin/MailingListQuery.pl?queryList=publi
c-html-comments says 41
http://cgi.w3.org/member-bin/MailingListQuery.pl?queryList=public-html-comments
<oedipus> GJR: mikeTMsmith, although it is a top-level link on the
HTML WG page, most people don't know of its existence and even
though in the spec, people diving down into details and skipping the
intro, which is human nature, which cannot be changed....
heartbeat requirement
oedipus - true that
<DanC> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/products/3
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/products/3
<oedipus> mikeTMsmith - it's the danger of checklists and best
practices documents -- people work off of them, rather than the
actual TR
<DanC> issue-19?
<trackbot-ng> ISSUE-19 -- HTML 5 specification 1st release as W3C WD
-- CLOSED
<trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/19
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/issues/19
DanC: product3 in tracker is W3C publications
<gsnedders> MikeSmith: action-37 can be closed
April 22
DanC: what's the next draft anybody wants to see published?
ChrisWilson: I would like to put in a request to not re-publish the
spec every 3 months
... (because of need to do patent review)
<gsnedders> I don't think it's worthwhile republishing the spec
every 3 months, but what other documents do we have that change
enough to be worthwhile publishing?
ChrisWilson: we either have to do a patent review every time we
publish the spec, or we have to agree before publishing [about all
changes that go into the spec between publications]
<Zakim> oedipus, you wanted to ask if WCAG (web content
accessibility guidelines - http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL and ATAG
(authoring tool accessibility wg - http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU) has
been
http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL
http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU)
HTML 5 authoring guide http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/products/5
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/products/5
<oedipus> has WCAG (web content accessibility guidelines -
http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL and ATAG (authoring tool accessibility
wg - http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU) has been approached about working
with HTML WG with on authoring guidelines? that is what these groups
do, and both have expressed willingness to work with the HTML WG on
such documentation
http://www.w3.org/WAI/GL
http://www.w3.org/WAI/AU)
GR: has the WAI authoring-tool group or [other WAI group] been
approached about collaborating?
DanC: not been approached to my knowledge
GR: I have talked to them, but I think they want somebody other than
me [from the HTML WG] to approach them
DanC: they are hereby welcomed
<DanC> trackbot-ng, status
<DanC> ACTION: Gregory: invite ATAG and WCAG WGs to help with HTML 5
authoring guidelines [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2008/01/24-html-wg-minutes.html#action04]
<trackbot-ng> Sorry, couldn't find user - Gregory:
<oedipus> DanC, use wai-liaison@w3.org and what other public list
<DanC> ACTION: Gregory invite ATAG and WCAG WGs to help with HTML 5
authoring guidelines [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2008/01/24-html-wg-minutes.html#action05]
<trackbot-ng> Created ACTION-47 - Invite ATAG and WCAG WGs to help
with HTML 5 authoring guidelines [on Gregory Rosmaita - due
2008-01-31].
action-37?
<trackbot-ng> ACTION-37 -- Michael(tm) Smith to announce Planet
HTML5 on public-html-announce, http://www.w3.org/html/, wherever
else appropriate -- due 2008-01-24 -- OPEN
http://www.w3.org/html/
<trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/37
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/37
<DanC> action-29
<DanC> action-29?
<trackbot-ng> ACTION-29 -- Dan Connolly to follow up on the idea of
a free-software-compatible license for a note on HTML authoring --
due 2008-01-31 -- OPEN
<trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/29
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/29
trackbot-ng, close action-37
<trackbot-ng> ACTION-37 Announce Planet HTML5 on
public-html-announce, http://www.w3.org/html/, wherever else
appropriate closed
http://www.w3.org/html/
DanC: I did follow up on action-29 ...
... it has gone up the tree ...
... I don't know if it has gone up to the Pope yet ...
... I did not push it [all the way] up the hill yet
<oedipus> GJR: if DanC wants to play sissyphus than he will plus one
Sam: I encourage you to pursue it, Dan
<oedipus> GJR: am checking what ATAG documents do...
DanC: use case: sometimes it's useful for certain kinds of
applications to emit messages that quote parts of W3C specs ...
... [but applications are currently not free to do that because of
W3C license restrictions]
anne: [there is some precedent for dual licensing]
<DanC> action-32?
<trackbot-ng> ACTION-32 -- Michael(tm) Smith to change the product
name of "HTML 5 authoring guidelines" in the tracker to something
else, eventually -- due 2008-01-24 -- OPEN
<trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/32
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/32
shepazu: some in AC may be concerned about it setting a precedent
trackbot-ng, close action-32
<trackbot-ng> ACTION-32 Change the product name of "HTML 5 authoring
guidelines" in the tracker to something else, eventually closed
<DanC> action-33?
<trackbot-ng> ACTION-33 -- Chris Wilson to investigate an HTML WG
blog, a la the way the I18N WG does it -- due 2008-02-05 -- OPEN
<trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/33
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/33
<shepazu> that's just my opinion, not a team stance
<gavin> e/win 26
anne: value of an HTML WG blog might be a place for people to blog
about HTML5 instead of just on their blog
... I think Planet HTML5 is good enough
ChrisWilson: Planet HTML5 is just aggregating blogs from elsewhere
...
DanC: so far only the chairs are authorized to speak on behalf of
the WG
<DanC> close action-33
<trackbot-ng> ACTION-33 Investigate an HTML WG blog, a la the way
the I18N WG does it closed
<DanC> action-34?
<trackbot-ng> ACTION-34 -- Lachlan Hunt to prepare "Web Developer's
Guide to HTML5" for publication in some way, as discussed on
2007-11-28 phone conference -- due 2008-01-31 -- OPEN
<trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/34
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/34
Lachy ?
you around?
<Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to mention mechanism that Planet HTML5
<DanC> (I think the mechanism Mike is mentioning is documented in
recent mail to public-html )
<DanC> (a pointer would be nice...)
aria-role ISSUE-14 (edit)
<oedipus> GJR's ARIA status report:
<oedipus> ARIA Suite will now contain: 1) ARIA Roadmap; 2) Roles,
States, and Properties for Accessible Rich Internet Applications
(combination of 2 previously separate documents); 3) ARIA Best
Practices; and 4) ARIA Primer (new)
<oedipus> two approaches to embedding ARIA:
<oedipus> 1) no namespaces, no prefixes -- host languages reserve
all attribute names matching the pattern aria-*. This allows the
ARIA states and properties to be controlled by the PFWG
specification, including future maintenance.
<oedipus> 2) by Namespaces in XML -- Role Attribute Module () will
give @role a 'home' namespace from which it can be cited using the
Namespaces in XML Recommendation technique, so that ARIA can be used
in DIAL and other dialects of XHTML, which are likely to be used
primarily to feed middleware, as there is no immediate prospect of
this technology being picked up widely by browsers any time soon
<oedipus> testing - collaborative matrix (ARIA Test Tests) being
maintained at: http://html4all.org/wiki/index.php/ARIATestTests
http://html4all.org/wiki/index.php/ARIATestTests
<oedipus> problem: links to Best Practices document (no public draft
yet) and the 2 drafts that are now one, but are not yet public
<DanC> (I strongly encourage you to migrate from html4all.org to the
esw.w3.org wiki)
oedipus: only reason it's at html4all is that esw wiki doesn't allow
hyperlinks in <dt>
<DanC> ACTION-23?
<trackbot-ng> ACTION-23 -- Gregory Rosmaita to coordinate tests
using ARIA -- due 2008-01-31 -- PENDINGREVIEW
<trackbot-ng> http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/23
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/tracker/actions/23
oedipus: I have to keep it open until new drafts come out ...
next meeting... 31 Jan?
oedipus: because there have been changes
ChrisWilson: can't chair on 31st because I'll be at Web Directions
North
DanC: I can't either
... propose to cancel 31 January and I can chair on 7 Feb
<DanC> so resolved
[adjourned]
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: Dan to developer EARL/hReview reports based on
http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/sniffing/ from
a handful of user agents [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2008/01/24-html-wg-minutes.html#action02]
[NEW] ACTION: Gregory invite ATAG and WCAG WGs to help with HTML 5
authoring guidelines [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2008/01/24-html-wg-minutes.html#action05]
[NEW] ACTION: Gregory: invite ATAG and WCAG WGs to help with HTML 5
authoring guidelines [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2008/01/24-html-wg-minutes.html#action04]
[NEW] ACTION: Julian ask B. Hoehrmann about any plans to update
http://www.websitedev.de/ietf/draft-hoehrmann-javascript-ri-00.txt
[recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2008/01/24-html-wg-minutes.html#action03]
[NEW] ACTION: Julian to investigate expected results to
http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/sniffing/
tests in collaboration with the IETF HTTP WG [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2008/01/24-html-wg-minutes.html#action01]
http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/sniffing/
http://www.websitedev.de/ietf/draft-hoehrmann-javascript-ri-00.txt
http://www.hixie.ch/tests/adhoc/http/content-type/sniffing/
--
Michael(tm) Smith
http://people.w3.org/mike/
http://sideshowbarker.net/
Received on Thursday, 24 January 2008 18:34:39 UTC