- From: Gregory J. Rosmaita <oedipus@hicom.net>
- Date: Thu, 13 Sep 2007 20:04:54 -0400
- To: HTML WG <public-html@w3.org>
aloha!
minutes from the 13 September 2007 HTML WG are available as hypertext at:
http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-minutes.html
and as plain text, below -- as usual, corrections should be logged by
replying to this post, so as to create a thread, gregory.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
- DRAFT -
HTML WG phone conference
13 Sep 2007
Agenda
See also: IRC log
[http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-irc]
Attendees
Present
Regrets
mjs
Chair
DanC
Scribe
Gregory_Rosmaita
Contents
* Topics
1. Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-09-13T23:00:00Z
2. Agenda Additions?
3. Design Principles, DNRtW and following
4. Forms draft status
5. US/EU telcon time conflict
6. Meeting Times
7. Nov ftf meeting organization http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07
8. November F2F Organization
9. thoughts on 1st WD of HTML 5 spec
10. Thoughts on 1st WD of HTML5 spec
11. Issue Tracking
12. usability testing video
* Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________________
<zcorpan_> so what happens with publishing?
<zcorpan_> i thought we were supposed to publish the spec in august
<sbuluf> chris wilson's review is still due, right? perhaps that?
<Lachy> zcorpan_, I updated update-markers.php with some code to
commit changes to the DB.
<Lachy> it's not finished yet, it still needs a better UI for
confirming changes and the code may need a little cleaning up
<zcorpan_> Lachy: great!
<Lachy> you can test it out
http://html5.lachy.id.au/status/annotate.html
<Lachy> that test just submits directly to the confirmation script,
bypassing the confirmation email
<zcorpan_> "The changes have been confirmed,"
<zcorpan_> ok
<Lachy> check this to see that the changes were made
http://html5.lachy.id.au/status/annotate-web-apps.php
<zcorpan_> yep
<Hixie> we were supposed to publish in june
<zcorpan_> Hixie: yeah, i meant last i heard
<Hixie> ah
<Hixie> (not that i think we need to publish anything)
<Hixie> (but if we want to publish something, it seems like it would
be trivial to find something to publish and just put it out there)
<sbuluf> i think chris wilson's review might be the cause
<Hixie> why?
<Hixie> it's not like i'm going to change the spec as soon as we get
his review
<Hixie> it'll hit the queue just like everyone else's feedback
<Hixie> (though it sure will be nice to finally have a review from
microsoft)
<emeriste> I have no special knowledge of html and I am really
grateful that all of you work on making it better.
<emeriste> I want to promote a certain idea although I may not have
the words to express it perfectly. You can understand the spirit of
what I mean --- I want html to make typesetting mathematics as easy as
putting a table on your page. Something like <math> (some sort of math
syntax) </math> and it works.
<hsivonen> emeriste: transferring MathML inside text/html is an open
issue
<emeriste> hsivonen - By open issue you mean it's something that you
are considering?
<hsivonen> emeriste: yes. it has been proposed but not rejected.
<emeriste> anne -- I was talking to someone else in here about it few
days ago, but I don't see them here now.
<hsivonen> emeriste: lack of existing MathML buy-in from non-Mozilla
vendors is a complicating factor considering getting two independent
and interoperable implementations
<emeriste> hsivonen -- I cant think of anything more important. Given
what the Internet is, and the fact that all mathematicians, teachers,
and scientists use the internet, it is astounding that you cannot mark
up math in a trivial way.
<hsivonen> emeriste: math in high on complexity and low on money. :-(
<emeriste> hsivonen - mathML is probably fine. I'm sure a lot of
thought has gone into it. All html has to do is recognize it between
simple <math> tags.
<anne> "simple"
<emeriste> Yeah I told you I'm naive about things but you can
understand what I mean anyway.
<anne> actually, what I meant is that it's non-trivial to come up with
a good solution
<anne> I quoted the wrong word
<emeriste> It should be 'rudimentary' html. Just like when you put a
table on your web page. <table> some instructions </table>
<emeriste> <math> some instructions (probably in mathML) </math>
<hsivonen> emeriste: there have been at least three proposed ways of
doing this, but we haven't been actively been pursuing this as a WG
<anne> yeah, I agree it should be really simple if we do it
<hsivonen> one might argue that politically the time is not right at
the moment
<emeriste> The best time would have been 10 years ago. The second best
time is now. :)
<emeriste> I don't understand namespace or mime or all that. I don't
get why I need to use convoluted xhtml that takes me half a day to
figure out. I'm sure there are reasons. I recognize my ignorance.
<emeriste> The Internet is THE medium for communicating ideas. That is
all the more so for technical ideas like math and science. For you
good people to make math easy to communicate over the Internet would
be a singular contribution to humanity.
<DanC> anne, have you talked with mjs about design principles lately?
<DanC> ah. hi mjs
<mjs> hello DanC
<DanC> still 1.4 Aug 16 at
http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-design-principles/Overview.html
<DanC> any news since then?
<DanC> I'd sure like to get a 1st WD done.
<anne> publish the spec :)
<DanC> people pushed back on the diff document and asked for design
principles, but now they seem more interested in @title and such.
<mjs> I haven't had time to edit since then, but I will likely have
time today
<DanC> mjs, do you agree with anne that the design principles
shouldn't be top priority?
<mjs> DanC: I'd most like to see a 1st WD of the actual spec, but it
would probably be harder to get people to agree to that
<anne> (I agree it would be nice to publish the design principles
though. Although when we initially wrote them up it was to explain
some of the design rationale of HTML5 and then quickly turned into a
rathole once exposed to public-html.)
<mjs> on the other hand, I don't think there's anything we could
publish that wouldn't cause at least some level of controversy
<DanC> the amount of agreement I want/need for 1st WD decreases as
time goes on.
<mjs> anyway, my plan was to spend the rest of this morning processing
design principles feedback, after I get to the office
<anne> (I'm also not sure what the big deal is, Working Drafts are
sort of expected to contain bugs and things people might disagree
with.)
<hsivonen> I'm not really here, but it seems that the terms "Cowpaths"
and "Real Problems" are problematic
<mjs> I would like to at least add an intro, and recast some of the
principles where the names have spawned vast amounts of confusion
<DanC> the big deal is that not everybody has experience with the
Working Draft process, and there's a lot of mistrust.
<hsivonen> As I see it, "Solve Real Problems" means "Don't Reward
Concern Trollish Behavior" and "No Architecture Astronautics"
<DanC> mjs, there's a telcon scheduled for today at 4p Pacific time;
anything you can do by then is golden.
<mjs> I have meetings all afternoon but the rest of my morning is free
<DanC> ok, I'll relay your regrets for the telcon
<mjs> I'll send a status update sometime in the early afternoon
(pacific time)
<DanC> great.
<anne> By the way, I'm not sure if I should remain co-editor now that
mjs is editing the document although I suppose I could make minor
edits if requested...
<mjs> I'd prefer to have someone available as backup at least
<DanC> hmm... I'd like to have some redundancy....
<mjs> if you don't mind
<anne> sure
<DanC> it's ok with me if you play mostly a back-up role, anne. I'll
know not to expect you to know the up-to-the-minute status, defend the
document against all comers, that sort of thing.
<anne> seems the TAG didn't reopen their MIME type issue...
<anne> oh well
<anne> (issue-24, fwiw)
<anne> mjs, since a while there are links such as
http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-design-principles/Overview.html
<mjs> anne: oh, cool
<Philip> http://msdn2.microsoft.com/en-gb/vstudio/Aa700736.aspx in
Opera outputs '<msdn:herocontrol id="HeroControl1" totalherodiv="1"
... xmlns:msdn="http://msdn.microsoft.com"> </msdn:herocontrol>' as
plain text
<Philip> but I can't tell whether they were trying to use namespaces
in HTML, or in actual real XML, and can't tell why it works in Firefox
but not Opera
<anne> that's because we support <![CDATA[
<Philip> Ah - by "support", do you mean "parse stupidly"? ;-)
<anne> something that goes for treating it differently from a bogus
comment
<mjs> I rewrote
http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-design-principles/Overview.html#support-e
xisting-content
<mjs> further comments welcome
<anne> Philip, first example I've seen where supporting <![CDATA[ is
annoying
<Philip> Hmm, Opera 9.5 still does <![CDATA[ x[y ]]> nonsensically
<jgraham> mjs: I'm not sure you can start a sentence with "or" (at
least it doesn't read well to me although I don't doubt that someone
will point out that it's allowed per some supposed spec. for English
grammar. However it's a very very minor point and not worth worrying
about)
<jgraham> Apart from that it looks great
<mjs> jgraham: you can start a sentence with "and" or "but", so I
think it's ok
<gavin_> isn't starting a sentence with a conjunction a major point of
debate among English language scholars? :)
<jgraham> mjs: I'm just saying it fails the "acceptability test" for
this native speaker
<mjs> gavin: It is. But I don't care.
<gavin_> me neither!
<mjs> actually, striking the "Or," makes it read better anyway
<jgraham> gavin_: I thought people had got past that and people just
went with "do people fluent in the language think it's OK". Of course
there are disagreements between different fluent speakers
<Hixie> Or, you can just say that "or" is ok to use in stylistic
situations. :-)
<mjs> I changed it because the word was unhelpful
<anne> Philip, yeah, no point improving it... we should probably
remove support for it though
<tH> heh, the default "G" icon for the firefox search box is stored as
a data:image/x-icon;base64, but it's a gif
<gavin_> tH: they're all x-icon, because our image guesser is good
enough that it didn't matter
<tH> gavin_: yeah, i just stuck a return at the top of the guessing
function to see what broke and that was the first thing i noticed :)
<gavin_> ah, ok :)
<DanC> I think Chris W is chairing today, but I'm not quite sure
<DanC> oops... agenda has leftover stuff
<MikeSmith> oedipus - well, hoping you might volunteer
i was going to
i will
<scribe> scribenick: oedipus
<scribe> scribe: Gregory_Rosmaita
Convene HTML WG meeting of 2007-09-13T23:00:00Z
<MikeSmith> Cba
just wanted to make clearer verbiage about backwards compatibility
especially targetted for i18n, a11y and device independence
Agenda Additions?
<DanC> ACTION: ChrisW discuss XHTML name coordination with XHTML 2 WG
in the Hypertext CG [CONTINUES] [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-minutes.html#action01]
<DanC> by way of agenda review, looking at actions from last time
<DanC> ACTION: MikeSmith to write up a summary of changes for last
[period of time], description of where changes go [WITHDRWAWN]
[recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-minutes.html#action02]
<Lachy> oh no, I dropped out :-(
<DanC> on purpose?
<Lachy> no, it was some connection error
DanC: 5 minutes into meeting time -- any remaining agenda requests?
<DanC> or did the office move eat you up, Chris?
<ChrisWilson> yes, working on it.
DC: will chair due to ChrisW's being inconvenienced by his move
Design Principles, DNRtW and following
<ChrisWilson> Thanks, Dan
<DanC> progress
http://dev.w3.org/html5/html-design-principles/Overview.html 1.8 $ of
$Date: 2007-09-13 21:14:39
<DanC> and recent mail from mjs
DC: abstract status intro and first 2 principles
CW: reading mail
DC: happy talked about what is supposed to be produced and what
browsers should be expected to eat -- need to repeat -- people not
hearing it
... pick up on survey input on do not break the web?
CW: yes
<DanC> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/dprv/results
DC: negative responses to question: "depends upon quality of wheel..."
"disagree without comment"
CW: consider specifying that technology i think covers it; open to
discussion of solution editable
DC: anyone think of better example
CW: content editable implementations differ, wouldn't automatically
accept
DC: would take a lot of screen real estate for a good pertient example
<ChrisWilson> Perhaps we should change the example to not imply that
we're automatically accepting contenteditable
DC: "not clear what a widely used..." -- a lot is people basically
saying "depends upon wheel"
CW: not automatically accept the wheel -- agree to disagree -- general
case, if wheel already there, consider that feature over reinventing
something new, unless demonstratively better
DC: no actionable feedback in Do Not Reinvent the Wheel
... 5 strongly disagree with
<mjs_> my plan for that principle was to retitle it to "Consider
Existing Implementations" or something like that
<mjs_> or "Adopt Some De Facto Standards"
DC: comments express a lot of distrust; principles are just principles
<mjs> so it's clear that it is a suggestion, not a mandate
DC: [reviews negative answers]
... laura suggests dropping it
<Lachy> proposed rewording of pave the cowpaths here
http://www.w3.org/mid/46C0A255.7080407@lachy.id.au
CW: earlier recasting of 3.3
DC: good point
CW: doesn't add a whole lot to explicitly have in there
... lightning rod -- cowpaths redundant
DC: agree
<ChrisWilson> Dropped again?
<mjs> and for "Pave the Cowpaths" something like "Study Authoring
Practices"
<mjs> people say things like "we shouldn't pave this cowpath", but
it's hard to argue that "we shouldn't study this authoring practice"
<DanC> mjs, is Cowpaths redundant w.r.t. "... invent the wheel"?
<DanC> http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/dprv/results#xenr
DC: evolution not revolution
<mjs> DanC, they are meant to be corresponding principles for existing
nonstandard implementation features and existing practices in content
disagrees from Jason White - "this is redundant"
<DanC> [[ I suggest to change the principle to "Promote progressive
design" ]]
DC: [reviews disagreements]
<Lachy> cowpaths isn't redundant. cowpaths is more about use cases,
the wheel is more about actual implemented features
DC: promote progressive design
... "words but not subtext" ?!?!
<ChrisWilson> Side note - I think "and content will live longer"
should be struck from the Evolution not Revolution principle. It's
tangential
DC: another promote progressive design
... solve real problems
<ChrisWilson> DC asks when we can publish this
DC: a little too tired to continue review; when should we publish this
thing? negotiate internally about heartbeat requirements, and don't
mind if take a little longer
LH: edit and pass before WG with deadline
<mjs> I think I can significantly improve it and reduce likely
controversy in the next week or so
<DanC> DanC: yes, after mjs finishes the pass he's engaged in, I'm
inclined to publish
<DanC> mjs, care to give an ETA? something like 2 weeks?
<mjs> DanC, I think 2 weeks is a good FPWD target
<DanC> thanks
DC: that's all i need on DP for today
LH: general comment -- IRC rewording these and a number of people
disagree -- make specific suggestions, not comments like "like wording
but not subtext"
MikeSmith: real world wording -- cliches or truisms; using them as
shorthand -- fundamentally opposed to wording, do so on point and
suggest something constructive -- better
<Zakim> MikeSmith, you wanted to suggest that some disagree comments
amount to splitting of hairs over wording and we are always likely to
have a certain number of such disagreements
Forms draft status
DC: gregory's asked question once or twice -- chris lilley here so can
answer
... looks in archive for CL's answer to query
<DanC> Re: Web Forms 2 - version clarification, please? Chris Lilley
DC: W3C Working Draft of august 2006
... to update TR/webforms some working group needs to publish
... this group could, but not right now
GJR: that's why we are tasked to charter and scope
<DanC> http://dev.w3.org/html5/web-forms-2/Overview.html
DC: october 2006 draft could be pushed to TR
... differences are trivial
... mostly editorial, since august
... want to go over so that no one left concerned
... business of forms task force itself
GJR: maciej on IRC
... one of the things i thought might speed was to work on a wiki so
not lost in deluge of email
... ChrisL amenable to idea, but don't know upon which wiki to work
DC: move to migrate mediawiki
... don't think grass going to necessarily greener on different wiki
GJR: forms WG have wiki
DC: ESW wiki fine by me; new wiki straight forward (but not strongly
encouraged)
Lachy: HTML wiki could swallow it -- easy to get lost
<MikeSmith> [I agree that mediawiki would bring a new set of problems;
but Rotan Hanrahan (who's quite familiar with both Mediawiki and
MoinMoin) is convinced that Mediawiki causes much less pain
DC: system team working on it; 22 wikis and don't want to give
mediawiki to one until can get to all
... email and try a teleconference in meantime
<Lachy> oedipus, I said: ESW wiki doesn't have talk pages, that causes
discussion to get mixed into the articles and difficult to follow and
edit
DC: forms task force not stuck on anything in particular
US/EU telcon time conflict
Meeting Times
DC: want to move US time 2 hours earlier on alternate
CW: could do at 9
DC: would have to leave for conflict meeting
<ChrisWilson> (thats 1 hour earlier)
<Lachy> I wonder if it would be possible to merge the ESW wiki and
whatwg wiki, and then mirror it on both w3 and whatwg.org?
DC: not available to chair on 27 september
... ChrisW can you chair on that date
CW: going to be on the road -- in fact, conflicts with keynote speech
DC: could chair the day after -- 21 september -- a friday
GJR: what time
<DanC> Fri Sep 21 at 1pET?
1700 UTC
<Hixie> Lachy: that sounds like a lot of pain for little gain, but
from the whatwg side i'm happy for you to do that if you think it's
worth it
EDT is UTC -4
DC: reschedule or cancel meeting on 27 september -- could reschedule
but would have to be a week later
<mjs> Lachy, Hixie: mirroring could be in the form of a CNAME
<DanC> PROPOSED: to meet 21 Sep Fri 1p Boston time, DanC to chair
<mjs> (if w3c is ok with that)
<DanC> I'll confirm by email
CW: first week of october
<DanC> PROPOSED: to cancel 27 Sep
<Hixie> mjs: i'm sure they'd want different branding too
Nov ftf meeting organization http://www.w3.org/html/wg/nov07
November F2F Organization
DC: found middle ground between conferences -- announced that, so
everyone should know
... on wednesday, plenary happening - have draft agenda -- there is a
member tech plenary list -- suggest that whomever can get there 8
november for plenary; we convene after lunch on 9 september
... 17 registrants and a dozen or so requesting invited expert status
... broad representation
<Hixie> oh while we're talking abouth the plenary, i should announce
in the interests of transparency and full disclosure that google will
be funding james graham's attendance, and will probably be funding two
other people though those details have yet to be finalised.
<DanC> noted, hixie
DC: continue to meet through lunch saturday morning
thoughts on 1st WD of HTML 5 spec
DC: anything else about F2F?
Thoughts on 1st WD of HTML5 spec
DC: detailed reviews coming in regularly; haven't done my audit of
reviews in a while
ChrisW: microsoft review still delayed - not before beginning of next
week
DC: how about before telecon
CW: on eve of sounds like good plan
DC: HTML5 spec going out at same time or after DP?
CW: after
GJR: after
Issue Tracking
DC: Sam Ruby still not ready to jump in with both feet
... could use someone in this role; W3C still searching for permenant
staff contact
... thoughts on triage team?
CW: ???? (couldn't hear)
DC: you want to keep the ball
CW: yes
DC: continue that action item, then
<DanC> ACTION: ChrisW to start setting up a team to triage issues
[CONTINUES] [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-minutes.html#action03]
usability testing video
DC: merits attention of entire WG
... [searches for pointer]
Lachy: Joshue who wrote
<Lachy> http://www.w3.org/mid/46DD6F27.6070608@cfit.ie
GJR: there is a wiki page with links
... sliced into easily digestable portions
<Lachy>
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Sep/0103.html
<DanC> From: Joshue O Connor <joshue.oconnor@cfit.ie>
<DanC> Date: Tue, 04 Sep 2007 15:43:51 +0100
<DanC> with links to videos such as
http://www.cfit.ie/html5_video/final/Table1.wmv
http://esw.w3.org/topic/HTML/AccessibilityTesting
DC: common user task -- can you find price of OJ on web site, look at
how many succed and how many fail
<Hixie> those videos are very interesting, i studied the header and
longdesc ones in detail. has he updated the summary one yet? it used
to be a dupe of the headers video.
DC: one video allowing person to editorialize -- did i look at wrong
parts?
Lachy: rest similar
DC: useful, but not what i was expecting
GJR: guidelines for user testing?
DC: worth celebrating in any case
<Hixie> yeah you have to ignore joshue's comments as he editorialises
:-) but the actual use parts are quite interesting
GJR: should we set some?
DC: cool that hixie really studying videos
<DanC> good point, hixie.
DC: end of prepared agenda
<DanC> yes, some videos is a whole lot better than no videos
<Hixie> i love studying them in detail
<Hixie> it's a goldmine of helpful guidance
<DanC> * Hixie would highly recommend not setting the bar high, we
want to encourage input regardless of quality really, since otherwise
we might see no input at all
<DanC> ADJOURN.
<Hixie> oedipus: http://krijnhoetmer.nl/irc-logs/ logs the /mes, iirc
Summary of Action Items
[NEW] ACTION: MikeSmith to write up a summary of changes for last
[period of time], description of where changes go [WITHDRWAWN]
[recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-minutes.html#action02]
[PENDING] ACTION: ChrisW discuss XHTML name coordination with XHTML 2
WG in the Hypertext CG [recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-minutes.html#action01]
[PENDING] ACTION: ChrisW to start setting up a team to triage issues
[recorded in
http://www.w3.org/2007/09/13-html-wg-minutes.html#action03]
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________________
Minutes formatted by David Booth's scribe.perl version 1.128 (CVS
log)
$Date: 2007/09/13 23:55:10 $
_________________________________________________________________
Received on Friday, 14 September 2007 00:05:09 UTC