- From: Henri Sivonen <hsivonen@iki.fi>
- Date: Tue, 11 Sep 2007 13:21:03 +0300
- To: Charles McCathieNevile <chaals@opera.com>
- Cc: "Steven Faulkner" <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>, HTMLWG <public-html@w3.org>, wai-xtech@w3.org
On Sep 11, 2007, at 12:16, Charles McCathieNevile wrote: > I think the situation today is similar to that of seven years ago, > where "we" were advocating for alt as a required attribute, but at > the same time insisting, for accessibility reasons, that authoring > tools don't just auto-generate it. Any HTML spec that makes unattended markup generators non-conforming will be disrespected in one way or another, because people want to write unattended generators. > The problem doesn't really come down to JAWS, but to authoring > tools/environments. I don't think JAWS can be excused. Reading out the file name without subjecting it to a heuristic readability test first can lead to awful usability as demonstrated by Steven Faulkner's testing. File names aren't intended to be read out loud by AT in the general case. Reading them is a placeholder generation heuristic. Failing to check first that the string to be read consists of something readable such as words in a dictionary or even sequences of letters that are long enough to look like words (as opposed to just punctuation and digits where a-f counts as potential hex digits) is just awful. > Flickr deciding to put null alt, or something that had the image's > tags in it, would be a half step forward. On the photo page, at least, that would duplicate content. > Flickr, as a photo album, is an odd case - if you get a description > then it generally makes sense not to have more text in an image. As I understand it, the whole point of keeping mentioning Flickr is that from the point of view of Web development in general, it isn't odd but a showcase Web 2.0 app. Conformance requirements should be inclusive enough to allow common apps to be written as conforming. (Flickr isn't conforming now, but the HTML 5 spec should be such that Flickr could be written as conforming. Otherwise, conformance would be just an ivory tower concept.) > But where a CMS or athoring tool is used, it *should* have the > ability to find out something about the image, or draw something > only moderately bad, or propose the descriptions that have been > used before. My understanding is that the fundamental assumption behind leaving the alternative text generation heuristic to the client side is that there is a handful of aural Web clients but a multitude of software generating HTML and it makes more sense to solve the problem a handful of times as opposed to a multitude of times. Moreover, developers of aural browsing software are expected to be in a better position to have the expertise and incentive to develop heuristics that meet the needs of their users. Steven Faulkner's testing shows that this assumption fails miserably when it comes to the current state of JAWS. The assumption may have to be revised if there's a fundamental reason why JAWS and others will continue to fail to provide better heuristics on the client side to such extent that even hasty non-expert server-side concoctions are likely to be better throughout the expected lifetime of the spec. One way of revising the assumption would be acknowledging that the client side heuristic isn't a point of competition for the clients and writing a de jure algorithm in the spec saving the client developers the trouble of designing one. > Without active participation from the author, all heuristics are > pretty awful. But the whole point of allowing alt to be omitted is to cover the case of what tool developers are to do when the author just isn't participating. And insisting that a human should always participate in the generation step of HTML documents just isn't going to work when it is so clear that people want to have unattended software generating stuff. > I would expect more authoring systems to have developed the ability > for J. Adminassistant to provide something half-useful when adding > an image, and more authors to realise that they *can* do this > easily enough and just remember. It may well work for some authoring use cases, but not for all authoring use cases, which means that such an expectation shouldn't be baked into the notion of document conformance. I upload so many photos to Flickr (5414 photos uploaded in the last 14 months), that I don't take the time to type nice titles for my sighted friends to whom I advertise my Flickr sets. I think expecting me to bear the opportunity cost of authoring even more elaborate additional (something that my camera doesn't output) data for people to whom I don't advertise my relatively inane vacation photo sets to is unrealistic, even though I fully agree that it would be great for a blind user who comes across my photo sets to have alternative text for the photos. -- Henri Sivonen hsivonen@iki.fi http://hsivonen.iki.fi/
Received on Tuesday, 11 September 2007 10:21:39 UTC