- From: Patrick H. Lauke <redux@splintered.co.uk>
- Date: Wed, 30 May 2007 20:24:35 +0100
- To: public-html@w3.org
Thomas Broyer wrote: > On the other hand, it has been proven that: > * headers= isn't used that much in the wild Due to poor authoring tool support. > (so current AT –which > have been said to poorly support scope=, so I suppose they support > *only* headers= for data-cell/headers-cell associations– can't make > most tables as accessible as they could with the kind of heuristics > HTML5 provides; in other word, they're not really usable yet –as far > as I understood what was said on this list–, at least wrt table > accessibility) headers currently work in the most consistent way. Scope works in most simple cases, but not necessarily with complex tables...meaning that those authors relying purely on scope for complex tables are (knowingly or unknowingly) creating tables that are, if not completely inaccessible, at least illogical to screen reader users. > * when used, it's often broken (header= instead of headers=) To me, that's completely irrelevant. This is like saying "many people can't type 'accommodation', so we should change the dictionary and drop the second 'm' entirely". Partly related to the bad authoring tool support as well. > Maybe it would need some more rules, e.g. a TH with no scope= in the > second column (resp. second row) is automatically affected a scope=row > (resp. scope=column) if the cell in the first column of the same row > (resp. the first row of the same column) is a TH with no scope= or > with scope=row (resp. scope=column). > That way, a table with e.g. two lines of TH column-headers (with the > first line having some cells spanning multiple columns) wouldn't need > scope= at all. > > However, with such a rule, I wonder whether scope=row and scope=column > would be need then… 'cause I've never been shown a table so complex > that this would be needed. Just to clarify: I'm all in favour of standardising these sorts of heuristic behaviours in the spec for tables lacking scope or headers attributes. But, since HTML 5 wants to specify current usage as well as expand the language, and standardise current practice and current behaviour, I can't see how this could be reconciled with simply not mentioning an attribute like headers which, despite playing the numbers game and saying it's not used much, is in fact in spec in HTML 4, and is demonstrably supported by current user agents. Unless HTML 5 UAs should deal with headers attributes as they would with any other unknown/out-of-spec attribute. What I'm getting at, basically: if HTML 5 wants to do away with versioning, and support current markup, how can it NOT at least define the headers attribute, even if it then marks it as "deprecated" or however this sort of thing will be handled in the future spec? Generally, if there's no versioning, shouldn't *everything* that is in the HTML 4.01 spec also be found in HTML 5? At least all the things currently implemented by UAs? (As much as I'd hate it, this would also include things like width/height/etc attributes on table cells, for instance...not that I want to see these recommended for use, but following the reasoning of 'standardising current browser behaviour', they probably need to be mentioned as well, no?) Trying to understand how deep this concept of unversioned support of all that was and all that will be runs... P -- Patrick H. Lauke ______________________________________________________________ re·dux (adj.): brought back; returned. used postpositively [latin : re-, re- + dux, leader; see duke.] www.splintered.co.uk | www.photographia.co.uk http://redux.deviantart.com ______________________________________________________________ Co-lead, Web Standards Project (WaSP) Accessibility Task Force http://webstandards.org/ ______________________________________________________________ Take it to the streets ... join the WaSP Street Team http://streetteam.webstandards.org/ ______________________________________________________________
Received on Wednesday, 30 May 2007 19:24:39 UTC