- From: John Boyer <boyerj@ca.ibm.com>
- Date: Tue, 1 May 2007 23:10:01 -0700
- To: "Preston L. Bannister" <preston@bannister.us>
- Cc: "Daniel Glazman" <daniel.glazman@disruptive-innovations.com>, "Dave Raggett" <dsr@w3.org>, "James Graham" <jg307@cam.ac.uk>, "Maciej Stachowiak" <mjs@apple.com>, preston.bannister@gmail.com, public-html@w3.org
- Message-ID: <OF47FD4CC0.F341F93E-ON882572CF.001EF0F8-882572CF.0021E03C@ca.ibm.com>
Hi Preston, Why is it more reasonable to assume that XForms will become a largely disused or niche-specific technology? Why isn't it just as reasonable to assume that XForms-based capabilities (in whatever form they ultimately take as a result of collaboration) might become some of the most-used capabilities in HTML5? The only way for this not to happen is for the computing problems we want to solve on the web to stop becoming harder over time, for everyone to just cool it with this whole demanding more business. When has that happened in the history of the web?!? It seems you've also hauled out the old bulk-up-the-browser argument again. I refer you to the rest of the email you snipped, which described the week back in 2001 where the part we're arguing about was both spec'd and implemented. Heck, it runs on phones for gosh sakes. And sure, it's clear to me that not everyone will want to use particular features. Regarding any feature, this just isn't news. You have the same issues with HTML features versus CSS features. In fact, the value of CSS relative to certain features of HTML is quite comparable to the discussion we are having now about some features in XForms. Maybe we just shouldn't have done CSS because, after all, we already had a way to set fonts and colors in HTML, and it would just break the whole web if mixed in a new behavior or paradigm... oops, no I guess that nightmare scenario didn't actually happen, now did it. John M. Boyer, Ph.D. STSM: Lotus Forms Architect and Researcher Chair, W3C Forms Working Group Workplace, Portal and Collaboration Software IBM Victoria Software Lab E-Mail: boyerj@ca.ibm.com Blog: http://www.ibm.com/developerworks/blogs/page/JohnBoyer "Preston L. Bannister" <preston@bannister.us> Sent by: preston.bannister@gmail.com 05/01/2007 10:35 PM To John Boyer/CanWest/IBM@IBMCA cc "James Graham" <jg307@cam.ac.uk>, "Daniel Glazman" <daniel.glazman@disruptive-innovations.com>, "Dave Raggett" <dsr@w3.org>, "Maciej Stachowiak" <mjs@apple.com>, public-html@w3.org Subject Re: HTML forms, XForms, Web Forms - which and how much? On 5/1/07, John Boyer <boyerj@ca.ibm.com> wrote: A point I made already on this list is that XForms blends imperative and declarative constructs. The question is not whether declarative is better than imperative. As your own research has shown, a blend is better. The problem is that some folks on this list want proof about why there should be *any* declarative expressions available. Why not just do everything with script? In Fred Brookes' book, the Mythical Man Month, research is cited to indicate that code complexity rises at a superlinear rate relative to the number of lines of code, on the order of L^1.5 where L is the number of source lines of code. This means that code which is 10 times longer is roughly 30 times harder to maintain. John, Assume that other folk have read and understood Brooke's book. Assume others have understood and practiced declarative programming. Now assume some of those folk may have different opinions than you have expressed. XForms (or something like it) could be implemented as a Javascript library, as server-side code, as a browser plug-in, or embedded in the standard browser - or as a mix of any of those possibilities. XForms is a domain-specific language (I trust you are familiar with this concept?) and as such should prove very suitable for some applications, and less suitable for others. This leads us to a set of alternatives. Should XForms implementations be separate from the browser (as at present)? Should HTML standard forms be extended - perhaps to aid XForms implementations? Should XForms be incorporated into all future browsers? Seems there are a few different viewpoints on this question. :) Personally, and am not too fond of the notion of mixing behavior with HTML. Maybe I don't care, since if XForms is incorporated into the browser implementations, I do not have to use it. On the other hand, this puts a long-term burden on the browser implementors. Perhaps in the long term XForms becomes a largely disused or niche-specific technology. In that case we are probably better off leaving XForms implementations outside the browsers, instead of bulking up the browsers and burdened the implementors. Seems we need to hash out some sort of consensus on this topic.
Received on Wednesday, 2 May 2007 06:10:15 UTC