- From: Murray Maloney <murray@muzmo.com>
- Date: Mon, 02 Apr 2007 18:03:41 -0400
- To: public-html@w3.org
Very well written, but I disagree entirely. A BLOCKQUOTE is a distinguished paragraph. It is presentational markup in the same sense that <P> and <OL> are presentational markup. And I support the existence of that class of presentational markup for documents on the Web. Using the same element inline and as a block is confusing. Besides which, BLOCKQUOTE is legacy HTML. -1 At 04:08 PM 4/2/2007 -0500, Gregory J. Rosmaita wrote: >=========================================== >1. why deprecate BLOCKQUOTE? >=========================================== > >A) it is misused as presentational markup; > >B) it is a presentational model taken from print >conventions, rather than semantic meaning. if Q was >ubiquitously implemented, one could use styling rules >to create a Q instance with the properties of a block >quotation - that is, as a paragraph indented at least >5em on both left and right margins; > >C) BLOCKQUOTE has no semantic meaning - it is >merely one means of many of demarcating any quote >an arbitrary number of sentences long. > >D) a quote is a quote is a quote - how it is >demarcated as a quote is a presentational matter; >what is important is that the material be logically >and consistently marked up, so why have 2 forms of >QUOTE, when only one is needed? > >E) as a user of non-visual renderers, i would >greatly appreciate my screen reader letting me >know where a quote begins and where it ends, no >matter how large or small the QUOTE, if i am to >cite the quote, or go to the target at which it >points, i have to know where it begins and ends, >not whether it is indented and presented in a >specific styling; this is part and parcel of my >argument, outlined in my proposal for reforming >the Q element: a user agent should recognize a >quote when it encounters one, and apply aural >or screen or print media selectors so that the >end user knows where the quotation begins and >where it ends; this is why i believe that >emphatic quotes should be marked up using the >EM element, and styled, if the author so desires, >through the use of CSS-generated quotation marks; >consult: >[http://www.w3.org/TR/CSS2/generate.html#quotes] > >F) BLOCKQUOTE, is - by definition - >presentational in nature, and is used as a >presentational, rather than a semantic element >of document design slash implementation. the >print convention of seperating a quote of more >than 3 sentences in a block of text, seperated >from the main text by blank lines at top and >bottom, with twice the whitespace on left and >right margins, than the main text. there is >NOTHING semantically sensible about preserving >BLOCKQUOTE, as a quote is a quote is a quote - >what is important to the renderer is where does >the quote begin and where does the quote end, so >that appropriate style rules can be applied, >either by default, specified by the author or >subject to a client side styling rule; thus, it >is up to the author, using CSS, to define the >presentational characteristics a quote will >take, if that author wishes to replicate the >print convention of a BLOCKQUOTE. the only >thing that seperates a BLOCKQUOTE from a Q >(quote) is how it is rendered by a user agent; >despite its distinctive styling, a quote is >still a quote, is still a quote, and canonical >HTML/XHTML should recognize that simple fact. > >G) Q itself MUST be reformed, with the attribute >SRC replacing the current definition of the CITE >attribute (a target URI from which the quote is >taken, and the re-definition of the CITE >attribute, to enable human-readable citations, >as outlined in: >[http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2007Apr/0065.html] > > >=========================================== >2. lingering issues (feel free to add any): >=========================================== > >A) Quotes will need to be nested within one >another, for often one quotes a source which, in >turn, quotes a third party; is redefining the Q >element as neither an inline nor block element, >but as a "flow" element, equal to this task? > >B) the Q element is defined in XHTML Strict as an >inline element, but it will either need to be >contained in the P element when used to indicate >an extended quotation, or - optimally - the other >way around, so that Q can be used inline, for >brief quotations, as well as for extended >quotations, such as dialogue from a play, >citations from legal documents, or the use of >a partial quote as part of contextualizing >text which leads to an extended quote. > ><!-- begin example of Q as both an inline and a block element --> ><P> ><!-- string of intro text with a --><Q src="" cite=""></Q> ><!-- nested in it, leading to an extended quote --> ></P> > ><Q src="" cite=""> ><P> ></P> > ><P> ></P> ></Q> ><!-- end example of Q as both an inline and a block element --> > >here is the barebones outline above with some flesh on the >skeleton, as well as illustrating the possibility of using a >for/id association with the source contained in a CITE >instance: > ><P> ><Q >src="http://www.newarkeveningnews.com/archives/1941/January/21/1.html" >for="q17>Conscious of our many problems,</Q>; Edison continued, ></P> > ><P class="indented-quote"> ><Q >src="http://www.newarkeveningnews.com/archives/1941/January/21/1.html" >for="q17" > >I seek today to lay a foundation to our public policy. My >fundamental purpose is to devote my term of office to raising >the standard of public service in New Jersey. I want to say >here and now, that I demand unshakable integrity of every >State employee. ></Q> ></P> > ><P> >Edison proceeded to assure the legislature that, as governor, he >would ><Q >src="http://www.newarkeveningnews.com/archives/1941/January/21/1.html" >for="q17">seek to cooperate with it in the advancement of the >public interest</Q>, and pledged to predicate his exercise >of gubernatorial authority ></P> > ><Q >src="http://www.newarkeveningnews.com/archives/1941/January/21/7.html" >for="q17"> ><P> >upon the principle of promoting the common good. We all know that >heavy demands are placed upon each one of us to play politics. We >know also, that delay and obstruction of governmental action is >the only certain result when that game is started. ></P> > ><P> >I am confident that this legislature will rise above partisan >bickering, especially after the public promises its members made >last fall, and that it will demonstrate a high capacity for civil >service. ></P> ></Q> > ><P> >Edison then renewed his pledge to <Q >src="http://www.newarkeveningnews.com/archives/1941/January/21/7.html" >for="q17">exert every effort to reduce public expenses</Q>, >and called upon <Q >src="http://www.newarkeveningnews.com/archives/1941/January/21/7.html" >for="q17">all public officials in the State and local governments</Q> >to do likewise. ></P> > ><!-- ... --> > ><h2>Bibliography</h2> > ><ul> ><li> ><cite id="q17">Edison Inaugural Discuss Labor, Education, Reform; >Calls Defense First Concern; Will Ask Legislation to Protect >Production Program in State; Text of Governor Edison's Message. >(Newark Evening News, January 21, 1941; pages 1,7)</cite> ></li> ></ul> > >------------------------------------------------------------------- >ABSURDITY, n. A statement or belief manifestly inconsistent with >one's own opinion. -- Ambrose Bierce (The Devils' Dictionary) >------------------------------------------------------------------- > Gregory J. Rosmaita, oedipus@hicom.net >-------------------------------------------------------------------
Received on Monday, 2 April 2007 22:31:50 UTC