- From: Gregory J. Rosmaita <oedipus@hicom.net>
- Date: Thu, 31 Mar 2011 17:17:44 +0100
- To: public-html-a11y@w3.org
aloha!
minutes from the 31 March 2011 HTML A11y Task Force's weekly telecon
can be accessed as hypertext from:
http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-html-a11y-minutes.html
as an IRC log at:
http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-html-a11y-irc
and as plain text following this announcement -- as usual, please
report any errors, clarifications, corrections, mis-attributions
and the like by replying-to this announcement on-list
thanks to Léonie Watson for scribing the 2011-03-31 meeting (and
for her extensive scribing at the recent face2face)
_________________________________________________________
- DRAFT -
HTML Accessibility Task Force Teleconference
31 Mar 2011
Agenda
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Mar/0237.html
See also: IRC log - http://www.w3.org/2011/03/31-html-a11y-irc
Attendees
Present
Cynthia_Shelly, Eric_Carlson, Gregory_Rosmaita, Janina_Sajka,
John_Foliot, Judy, Léonie_Watson, MRanon, Marco_Ranon,
Michael_Cooper, Mike, Mike_Smith, kliehm, Paul_Cotton
Regrets
Denis_Boudreau, Laura_Carlson, Rich_Schwerdtfeger
Chair
Janina_Sajka
Scribe
Leonie_Watson
Contents
* Topics
1. Canvas subteam update
2. Sub group updates: Media
3. longdesc
* Summary of Action Items
_________________________________________________________
<trackbot> Date: 31 March 2011
<janina> Meeting: HTML-A11Y telecon
<janina> Chair: Janina_Sajka
<janina> agenda: this
Canvas subteam update
<oedipus> RichS' update on Canvas Subgroup (2011-03-30)
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html-a11y/2011Mar/0225.html
<oedipus> HTML WG Issue-131 (caret for canvas) CP objection poll
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-131-objection-poll
<oedipus> HTML WG Issue-131 (caret for canvas) CP objection poll
results
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-131-objection-poll/results
<oedipus> HTML A11y TF Canvas Subgroup CP being polled for HTML WG
Issue-131
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/CaretSelection
<oedipus> ian hickson counter proposal
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Mar/0521.html -
as RichS' comments point out, hixie's counter proposal has
several technical flaws and does not address magnification needs
sufficiently
<MichaelC> scribe: Leonie_Watson
<MichaelC> Topic Sub group updates: Canvas
<MichaelC> GJR: RS has created a change proposal for issue 131, but
IH believes it to be unsound.
<MichaelC> GJR: When the TF completes something that is seen as a
deliverable, what do we have to do to get that accepted?
<oedipus> poll closes today 2011-03-31
JB: At a minimum you would want to provide that clear statement of
the survey.
... To acknowledge that the consensus came from a wider range of
sources.
... Restating the facts and restating the concerns would be helpful
in getting those things on the record again.
JS: Can I remind everyone that the chairs have asked people not to
+1 or repeat information.
<paulc> Please note that all surveys say: "Comments that are NOT
actual technical objections to material in the change proposal ARE
NOT ACCEPTABLE and WILL BE IGNORED. "
EC: I think it's reasonable and healthy for people to have other
proposals. They'll be evaluated on their merits.
JB: I don't disagree with that at all.
<oedipus> 1. the "alternate" proposal is the canvas spec text
iitself; 2. canvas subgroup tasked to provide spec ready solutions
GJR: The alternate proposal is the canvas spec text itself, and that
has grown and changed over time. The sub group was tasked with
taking that text and looking at there the holes might be.
<paulc>
http://www.w3.org/2002/09/wbs/40318/issue-131-objection-poll/
PC: You guys need to read the poll...
<paulc> "Comments that are NOT actual technical objections to
material in the change proposal ARE NOT ACCEPTABLE and WILL BE
IGNORED. "
<oedipus> paulc, how, then, do we make issues such as the one under
discussion to the chairs and WG?
PC: The text says comments that are not technical objectsions are
not acceptable and will be ignored. I want to warn you that from
what I can tell, these kinds of comments about the validity/strength
of where a proposal comes from will be dismissed.
CS: Does it comes down to the fact that oen proposal was vetted by
vendors and the others was not make the difference?
<JF> +q
<oedipus> what is the use of the poll if feedback is so limiited?
CS: Is consultation with a wider array of vendors significant?
PC: Yes, providing it's demonstratd through technical comments
within the change proposal.
... Just saying you talked to your mother about your change proposal
isn't germaine.
<oedipus> B.S
JB: The potentially narrow wording of some of the questions within
the survey has fuelled some f the difficulty.
<JF> Note: the chairs are hesitant to reorganize the poll questions
completely, unless there are WG members who truly feel they cannot
sensibly respond to the current poll. -
http://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-html/2011Mar/0742.html
JB: I hope you do look at the evidence of where something was
vetted.
GJR: I don't think you heard what I said in reply to Eric. This
isn't being pulled out of our sleeves, it's a dedicated effort by
the TF to come up with identification of where the holes are, how
they can be plugged and the relevant changes to the spec.
... We've had this discussion many times before, the way the survey
questions are phrased/posed, makes us question how we're supposed to
approach thes things?
<oedipus> RichS is a C T O at IBM not someone's mother-in-law
JF: It's hard to find examples when we're talking about future
implementations. We're also supposed to be building consensus, but
when you have two opposing perspectives it isn't clear how we
resolve that.
<paulc> From the survey lead in text: We will not do any numerical
counting all the votes. All we will look at is the objections and
rationale presented.
<JF> CAn the chairs define what they consider "consensus>?
PC: What I'mn hearing is a more general distain for the survey
process. I'd suggest you all have more valuable work to do than
discuss this process. I suggest you describe your concerns and JS
and JB can take them to the chairs.
<oedipus> paulc, doesn't the small number of comments that are
actually dealt with in these surveys ring a warning bell to the
co-chairs
PC: I hear your pain, but this is the process the chairs have put in
place. We did a call for consensus, which was approved by the WG.
<paulc> One other comment:
<paulc> I anyone has trouble understanding a survey they should
respond to the Straw Poll email asking for a clarifiacation.
<oedipus> this isn't the first time that the survey format has been
questioned, at least in this TF, for quite some time
<paulc> They chairs are very open to explaing or even adjusting the
survey(s) so they are clearer.
<paulc> it only makes our evaluation easier.
<JF> +q
<oedipus> 3 responders to poll on HTML WG Issue-131 are: hixie,
RichS and SteveF
<oedipus> rich does a very good job of explaining why the canvas
subgroup's CP should be considered and the problems with hixie's
counterpropsal
JF: How are the chairs assessing consensus here? It seems that some
issues are stepping into the realm of philosophy, it's not even a
question about the text itself, but where the text should be. But
you're not asking for philosophy, you're asking for technicalities.
PC: We measure consensus by trying to find the change proposal that
generates the least objection.
EC: What I hear is a number of people saying the chairs should
recognise authority, and that people are making appeals to
authority, and I don't believe that's what this group actually
wants.
... Whilst this group has a great deal of accessibility expertise,
there are probably a lot of people outside of this group that have
expertise in other areas of the web, and we don't want the opinions
of people here shut out because they're not recognised as experts in
other areas.
<paulc> Again from the survey lead in text: This is not a popularity
contest. The Working Group Decision will be based on the strength of
objections, not the number of people expressing them.
<oedipus> eric_carlson, a major reason why the TF exists is to get
info from pertinent authorities where ever they are (within/without
W3C)
JS: Everyone needs to be heard, you don't need to be an authority to
have a good ieea. We do hhave to work with the people who will make
things work and we're casting about for a way to make that happen.
GJR: What we did is what EC suggested, we gathered opinions, vetted
them and I think we're functioning in the way we should be.
JS: We need to try and keep that technically focused.
PC: The poll closes on 31/03/2011.
Sub group updates: Media
JS: Very solid progress is being made, however it's not possible to
reduce the number of change proposals this week. It's going to take
more time, and there was concern about this yesterday on the call.
<paulc> The Chairs have read the Media sub-group minutes in detail,
we are monitoring the progress, we are processing MSFT's request for
a delay in the survey, ...
JF: Issue 152 - There's still a lot of discussion happening, we're
trying to get it done ASAP, and there is a concern that if it gets
pushed too far we'll be missing a technical requirement that's been
articulated early on. There's a general consensus, and we need this
going into last call.
... There are a couple of other oustanding issues that we didn't get
a chance to discuss, but none are considered critical at this stage.
<paulc> The WG Chairs will be meeting today after the WG Weekly
meeting to discuss how to move ISUE-152 forward.
JS: The group remains focused via email, the wki and other channels
in addition to the weekly telecons.
<JF> thanks paul
<paulc> I personally do NOT believe the survey will start on April 1
as originally announced.
PC: Keep working on the work you've been doing, I think it's heading
in the right direction.
<paulc> Thank for all the great work on -152. We are in a MUCH
better place than say a month ago.
JF: We're working hard to get this cleared up ASAP.
PC: Having a deadline for issue 152 seems to have helped.
longdesc
<paulc> Question for participants: would it have been better if I
had NOT attended this meeting? You might have go more work done
WITHOUT me?
<oedipus> paulc, no we DO appreciate your participation and are
thankful for it
JS: We're looking to SF to help draft a proposal based on
conversations at the F2F. LC has done great work, but calling it a
change proposal is difficult because it seems to transmute several
times a day at the moment and we need to extract a solid core from
it.
<oedipus> change proposal strategy note: once the change proposal
has reached maturity, any additional information pertinent to the
issue should be logged using the wiki page's "discussion" page
feature, so as to maintain the stability of the actual CP
<JF> +1 to GJR
GJR: Strategy note, once you have a change proposal you feel is
close, it helps to log notes and comments on the wki. This helps the
change proposal itself stay more consistent.
<oedipus> LauraC's original CP:
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/InstateLongdesc
JF: The most important take away from the F2F was a relaxing of the
stand on whether the presence of a longer description mechanism
should be visible to sighted people. In listening to a lot of
feedback and discussing it, there was agreement that having a visual
indicator was useful though.
<oedipus> CP from SD F2F:
http://www.w3.org/html/wg/wiki/ChangeProposals/imagedescription
JF: There was also some draft text put into SF's alt text document.
Personally I feel this is the best place for author guidance.
JS: There is a whole question around the idea of a visual indicator
or the ability to access that meta data via the browser. The
response seems to be that there isn't an objection to this, but it's
not strictly an a11y issue.
JF: The general feeling was that it would be a "should" requirement,
rather than a "must" requirement. The belief is that the single
widest barrier to the adoption of longdesc to date is that browsers
haven't been able to convey the presence of a longdesc to users and
this is why it's been broken.
<oedipus> note: PFWG has formally submitted its
recommendation/resolution on Verbose Descriptor Requirements
http://www.w3.org/WAI/PF/HTML/wiki/Verbose_desc_reqs#Requirements
JS: In a parallel effort, PF in response to this discussion and
specifically in response to many f the issues raised during the
first round of consideration, have tried to come up with a set of
requirements.
<oedipus> 1. A programmatic mechanism to reference a specific set of
structured content, either internal or external to the document
containing the described image.
<oedipus> 2. A way to inform users and authors that a description is
present/available.
<oedipus> 3. A device independent way to access the descriptive
content.
<oedipus> 4. An explicit provision that accessing descriptive
content, whether internal or external to the document containing the
image, does NOT take the user away from the user's position in the
document containing the image where the verbose descriptor was
invoked;
<oedipus> 5. A way to provide user control over exposition of the
descriptor so that rendering of the image and its description is not
an either/or proposition. (A visual indicator of the description
should NOT be a forced visual encumbrance on sighted users by
default).
<oedipus> 6. A method to reference a longer description of an image,
without including the content in the main flow of a page.
<oedipus> 7. Since an img element may be within the content of an a
element, the user agent's mechanism in the user interface for
accessing the verbose descriptor resource of the former must be
different than the mechanism for accessing the href resource of the
latter.
GJR: These requirements are attribute and element agnostic. These
are specifically to define what functionality is needed for a
verbose description mechanism. They're not requirements for longdesc
specifically.
JS: The aim is for the TF to look at these and either modify or
endorse them.
<oedipus> the 7 PFWG requirements for verbose description also
logged as HTML WG Bug 10853 HTML5 lacks a verbose description
mechanism: http://www.w3.org/Bugs/Public/show_bug.cgi?id=10853
JB: Would it be possible for SF and JF to take a look at this before
Friday, so the TF could look at it and see if we can get consensus?
JF: SF and I talked about this, and yes. There is some work that's
happening and it's a mirror of what Laura is doing, and we want to
make sure we capture the consensus we arrived at in San Diego.
JB: Can the TF confirm a welcome to Laura to coordinate directly
with the TF on this?.
Summary of Action Items
[End of minutes]
_________________________________________________________
Received on Thursday, 31 March 2011 16:18:14 UTC