Re: PAS submission to ISO/IEC JTC1 (was Re: [AGENDA] EPUB 3 Working Group (EPUB3WG) Teleconference - 8 December 2022)

2022年12月8日(木) 21:54 Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>:

> On 8 Dec 2022, at 12:57, Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com> wrote:
>
> One clarification – from someone who has gone through the PAS process (and
> also chairs an ISO TC).
>
> The part about “just slapping on a cover page” is correct BUT then the
> document still goes through one round of voting for approval.  During that
> round, any member of the committee may submit comments (either technical or
> editorial), which the committee with then need to discuss and potentially
> apply.   So it’s not always the case that the document is “unchanged”.  And
> if there are changes, depending on the type of changes, the document may
> have to go back for another round of ballots (or it could just go to
> publication).
>
>
>
> Thanks for all this info. I know that there is a vote; we will cross the
> bridge when get to the comments.
>
> What this tells me, though, that either this WG or its maintenance
> follower should exist when we make the submission; it would then be able to
> make a quick republication of the spec with the comments included (if
> appropriate).
>


The PAS submitter has the right to withdraw the
submission anytime before the publication.  I thus
assume that W3C will withdraw the submission
if some changes are agreed upon during the
comment disposition at ISO.  Thus, there are
no risks of divergence.


>
>
> With respect to “Living Standards” vs ISO – the way to think about it is
> that you only send to ISO on major milestones (aka a “snapshot in time”).
> For example, when you make a change that isn’t backwards compatible and
> would require a version update to EPUB 3.4, THEN you send it to PAS for
> standardization.
>
>
> Great. A maintenance WG should probably not have the right to publish an
> EPUB 3.4 anyway, so I do not think that is a problem for now. The rest
> sounds good.
>

WCAG 2.0 is an ISO/IEC standard, but 2.1 is not.
Thus, the JIS version is still based on 2.0.  I think
that this has caused real problems.

The whole point of the PAS agreement between
W3C and ISO is to make submissions easier
without any risks of divergence.  I strongly
think that every REC for EPUB/EPUB RS/EPUB A11Y
should be immediately sent to ISO using
the PAS procedure.

Regards,
Makoto





>
> Otherwise, the industry works from the “Living Standard” (which is a term
> that I **HATE** - instead preferring to think of them as “specifications”
> vs. what comes from ISO as the “standard”).
>
>
>
> :-) The formal terminology [1] is that the WG would get the right to make
> changes with new features ("class 4 changes") in the specification;
> something that must be specified at the time of moving to a PR.
>
> Ivan
>
>
> [1] https://www.w3.org/2021/Process-20211102/#transition-pr
>
>
> Leonard
>
>
> *From: *Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
> *Date: *Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 4:02 AM
> *To: *"Shinya Takami (高見真也)" <takami-s@kadokawa.jp>
> *Cc: *Makoto Murata <eb2mmrt@gmail.com>, W3C EPUB 3 Working Group <
> public-epub-wg@w3.org>
> *Subject: *Re: PAS submission to ISO/IEC JTC1 (was Re: [AGENDA] EPUB 3
> Working Group (EPUB3WG) Teleconference - 8 December 2022)
> I can answer that, Shinya…
>
> The submission must be made officially by the W3C. I am not familiar with
> the administrative details (but I can find out), but there is a process
> whereby W3C, as a copyright holder and "owner" of the Recommendation, can
> submit it to ISO. ISO would then accept and publish the recommendation as
> an official ISO standard. This is the "PAS submission procedure", which is
> based on a general agreement between ISO JTC1 and W3C essentially saying
> that ISO accepts the outcome of a W3C WG work as a real standard. The great
> advantage (as opposed to earlier EPUB related ISO documents in the past) is
> that the document does not have to change at all, ie, no transformation
> into ISO language/tools/format/whatever, and its review process is also
> simplified. The copyright and the patent policy commitments are also
> unchanged. In particular, the documents will also remain public. As Makoto
> says, ISO JTC1 just adds its own cover page.
>
> The decision that the WG will have to take is whether the WG requests W3C
> to do this submission, once the three Recommendations, ie, EPUB Core, EPUB
> RS, and EPUB A11Y, are published.
>
> However, while I agree with Makoto that it is good to avoid confusion on
> the market place, i.e., that the PAS procedure would make a lot of sense at
> this point, there is an aspect that we have to discuss.
>
> ISO submission put aside, we will have to decide whether we want to turn
> the EPUB 3.3 publication into a "living standard" or not. "Living standard"
> means the following. Once this WG runs out of its charter, we set up a
> low-key "maintenance WG", which handles errata and, possibly, looks at the
> outstanding issues (see [1] for those at the moment). The WG will have the
> possibility to make 'fast-track' updates of the EPUB 3.3 by, for example,
> handling errata but, more importantly, solving another issue listed in [1]
> and adding a new normative feature (remember the discussion we had on
> Webtoons in [2]). Fast track means that we do not have to go through a WG
> draft, it ends up "editing" an existing standard quickly. Bottom line: we
> may end up issuing a new version of EPUB 3.3 once a year, or once every 18
> months if necessary.
>
> Coming back to the original issue: Makoto, can you tell us what that would
> mean in terms of ISO? Can ISO accept such quick turnover on new versions?
> How long does it take to submit a new version of EPUB 3.3 via the PAS
> procedure? The danger is that, with a Living EPUB 3.3 standard, we would
> get out of sync with ISO very quickly, which would beat the purpose of a
> PAS submission.
>
> Cheers
>
> Ivan
>
> [1]
> https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3AStatus-Deferred
> <https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues?q=is:issue+is:open+label:Status-Deferred>
> [2] https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2412
>
>
>
>
>
> On 8 Dec 2022, at 03:58, Shinya Takami <takami-s@kadokawa.jp> wrote:
>
> Murata-san,
>
> Could you explain what and who should do for that at the call?
>
>
> Thanks
> Shinya
>
>
>
> 2022年12月8日(木) 9:55 MURATA <eb2mmrt@gmail.com>:
>
> All,
>
> > What do we do after EPUB 3.3?
>
> I propose to submit EPUB 3.3, EPUB RS 3.3, and
> EPUB A11Y 1.1 to ISO/IEC JTC1 using the PAS
> submission procedure.  In my understanding, the
> PAS agreement between W3C and JTC1 implies
> that JTC1 will attach cover pages and will not touch
> anything.  This is how WCAG 2.0 was published
> as ISO/IEC 40500:2012.
>
> Replacing old versions in JTC1 by new versions
> is good for avoiding unnecessary confusion.  In
> particular, I can start to revise the JIS version
> of EPUB A11Y.
>
> Regards,
> Makoto
>
> 2022年12月7日(水) 23:20 Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com>:
>
> Thursday 8 December 2022
> Time: 7:00 PM Boston (60min)
> Local date/time link: *https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=EPUB3WG+Meeting&iso=20221208T19&p1=43&ah=1
> <https://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?msg=EPUB3WG+Meeting&iso=20221208T19&p1=43&ah=1>*
>
>
> Connection details at end of note
>
> Topics:
> 1 – Testing Updates [1]
> 2 – MIME Sniffing [2]
> 3 – What do we do after EPUB 3.3?
>
> Links
> [1]  https://w3c.github.io/epub-tests/results
> [2] https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2491
>
>
> =================
> = Connection details =
> =================
> Text Chat: https://irc.w3.org/?channels=epub
> IRC://irc.w3.org:6665/#epub
>
> Meeting link for Zoom in archive:
> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Member/member-epub-wg/2020Aug/0000.html
>
> =================
> The EPUB3WG relies on IRC in our weekly call to encourage meeting
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>
>
>
>
>
> --
>  --
> 慶應義塾大学政策・メディア研究科特任教授
> 村田 真
>
> --
> XxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxXxX
>  Shinya Takami, Ph.D. <takami-s@kadokawa.jp>
>  Chief Architect & Evangelist, KADOKAWA CORPORATION
>   - + - - + - - + - - + - - + - - + - - + - - + -
>  Senior Researcher, Keio Research Institute at SFC
>   https://www.kri.sfc.keio.ac.jp/en/lab/aplab/
>  Co-Chair, EPUB 3 Working Group | Publishing@W3C
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>
>
> ----
> Ivan Herman, W3C
> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
> mobile: +33 6 52 46 00 43
>
>
>
> ----
> Ivan Herman, W3C
> Home: http://www.w3.org/People/Ivan/
> mobile: +33 6 52 46 00 43
>
>
>

-- 
 --
慶應義塾大学政策・メディア研究科特任教授
村田 真