Re: PAS submission to ISO/IEC JTC1 (was Re: [AGENDA] EPUB 3 Working Group (EPUB3WG) Teleconference - 8 December 2022)

>.  I thus  assume that W3C will withdraw the submission  if some changes are agreed upon during the  comment disposition at ISO.
>
Of course you could do that – though I would, instead, assume that any changes made to the ISO version would be rolled back into the W3C version.  This is the model used by other standards bodies such as the Unicode Consortium and the ICC.

Leonard


From: MURATA <eb2mmrt@gmail.com>
Date: Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 8:03 AM
To: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org>
Cc: Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com>, Shinya Takami (高見真也) <takami-s@kadokawa.jp>, W3C EPUB 3 Working Group <public-epub-wg@w3.org>
Subject: Re: PAS submission to ISO/IEC JTC1 (was Re: [AGENDA] EPUB 3 Working Group (EPUB3WG) Teleconference - 8 December 2022)

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2022年12月8日(木) 21:54 Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org<mailto:ivan@w3.org>>:
On 8 Dec 2022, at 12:57, Leonard Rosenthol <lrosenth@adobe.com<mailto:lrosenth@adobe.com>> wrote:

One clarification – from someone who has gone through the PAS process (and also chairs an ISO TC).

The part about “just slapping on a cover page” is correct BUT then the document still goes through one round of voting for approval.  During that round, any member of the committee may submit comments (either technical or editorial), which the committee with then need to discuss and potentially apply.   So it’s not always the case that the document is “unchanged”.  And if there are changes, depending on the type of changes, the document may have to go back for another round of ballots (or it could just go to publication).


Thanks for all this info. I know that there is a vote; we will cross the bridge when get to the comments.

What this tells me, though, that either this WG or its maintenance follower should exist when we make the submission; it would then be able to make a quick republication of the spec with the comments included (if appropriate).


The PAS submitter has the right to withdraw the
submission anytime before the publication.  I thus
assume that W3C will withdraw the submission
if some changes are agreed upon during the
comment disposition at ISO.  Thus, there are
no risks of divergence.




With respect to “Living Standards” vs ISO – the way to think about it is that you only send to ISO on major milestones (aka a “snapshot in time”).  For example, when you make a change that isn’t backwards compatible and would require a version update to EPUB 3.4, THEN you send it to PAS for standardization.

Great. A maintenance WG should probably not have the right to publish an EPUB 3.4 anyway, so I do not think that is a problem for now. The rest sounds good.

WCAG 2.0 is an ISO/IEC standard, but 2.1 is not.
Thus, the JIS version is still based on 2.0.  I think
that this has caused real problems.

The whole point of the PAS agreement between
W3C and ISO is to make submissions easier
without any risks of divergence.  I strongly
think that every REC for EPUB/EPUB RS/EPUB A11Y
should be immediately sent to ISO using
the PAS procedure.

Regards,
Makoto







Otherwise, the industry works from the “Living Standard” (which is a term that I *HATE* - instead preferring to think of them as “specifications” vs. what comes from ISO as the “standard”).


:-) The formal terminology [1] is that the WG would get the right to make changes with new features ("class 4 changes") in the specification; something that must be specified at the time of moving to a PR.

Ivan


[1] https://www.w3.org/2021/Process-20211102/#transition-pr<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.w3.org%2F2021%2FProcess-20211102%2F%23transition-pr&data=05%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7Cc6cd293b280c40a9457808dad91c8a48%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C638061013857920333%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=zb2%2FFzMR0Vv9%2B%2FTSVM70yKpK3PDZSghzlGw71ryATmM%3D&reserved=0>



Leonard

From: Ivan Herman <ivan@w3.org<mailto:ivan@w3.org>>
Date: Thursday, December 8, 2022 at 4:02 AM
To: "Shinya Takami (高見真也)" <takami-s@kadokawa.jp<mailto:takami-s@kadokawa.jp>>
Cc: Makoto Murata <eb2mmrt@gmail.com<mailto:eb2mmrt@gmail.com>>, W3C EPUB 3 Working Group <public-epub-wg@w3.org<mailto:public-epub-wg@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: PAS submission to ISO/IEC JTC1 (was Re: [AGENDA] EPUB 3 Working Group (EPUB3WG) Teleconference - 8 December 2022)
I can answer that, Shinya…

The submission must be made officially by the W3C. I am not familiar with the administrative details (but I can find out), but there is a process whereby W3C, as a copyright holder and "owner" of the Recommendation, can submit it to ISO. ISO would then accept and publish the recommendation as an official ISO standard. This is the "PAS submission procedure", which is based on a general agreement between ISO JTC1 and W3C essentially saying that ISO accepts the outcome of a W3C WG work as a real standard. The great advantage (as opposed to earlier EPUB related ISO documents in the past) is that the document does not have to change at all, ie, no transformation into ISO language/tools/format/whatever, and its review process is also simplified. The copyright and the patent policy commitments are also unchanged. In particular, the documents will also remain public. As Makoto says, ISO JTC1 just adds its own cover page.

The decision that the WG will have to take is whether the WG requests W3C to do this submission, once the three Recommendations, ie, EPUB Core, EPUB RS, and EPUB A11Y, are published.

However, while I agree with Makoto that it is good to avoid confusion on the market place, i.e., that the PAS procedure would make a lot of sense at this point, there is an aspect that we have to discuss.

ISO submission put aside, we will have to decide whether we want to turn the EPUB 3.3 publication into a "living standard" or not. "Living standard" means the following. Once this WG runs out of its charter, we set up a low-key "maintenance WG", which handles errata and, possibly, looks at the outstanding issues (see [1] for those at the moment). The WG will have the possibility to make 'fast-track' updates of the EPUB 3.3 by, for example, handling errata but, more importantly, solving another issue listed in [1] and adding a new normative feature (remember the discussion we had on Webtoons in [2]). Fast track means that we do not have to go through a WG draft, it ends up "editing" an existing standard quickly. Bottom line: we may end up issuing a new version of EPUB 3.3 once a year, or once every 18 months if necessary.

Coming back to the original issue: Makoto, can you tell us what that would mean in terms of ISO? Can ISO accept such quick turnover on new versions? How long does it take to submit a new version of EPUB 3.3 via the PAS procedure? The danger is that, with a Living EPUB 3.3 standard, we would get out of sync with ISO very quickly, which would beat the purpose of a PAS submission.

Cheers

Ivan

[1] https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues?q=is%3Aissue+is%3Aopen+label%3AStatus-Deferred<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fepub-specs%2Fissues%3Fq%3Dis%3Aissue%2Bis%3Aopen%2Blabel%3AStatus-Deferred&data=05%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7Cc6cd293b280c40a9457808dad91c8a48%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C638061013858076548%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=Br3pDEov%2B6OtFZuU9WqHMhSUVEkkISSB%2FPXdJzZOYWk%3D&reserved=0>
[2] https://github.com/w3c/epub-specs/issues/2412<https://nam04.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fepub-specs%2Fissues%2F2412&data=05%7C01%7Clrosenth%40adobe.com%7Cc6cd293b280c40a9457808dad91c8a48%7Cfa7b1b5a7b34438794aed2c178decee1%7C0%7C0%7C638061013858076548%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C3000%7C%7C%7C&sdata=WYfW8vKT08kn6kTO%2F8Gnxkout5fMnufvE9GBNlXsNqM%3D&reserved=0>




On 8 Dec 2022, at 03:58, Shinya Takami <takami-s@kadokawa.jp<mailto:takami-s@kadokawa.jp>> wrote:

Murata-san,

Could you explain what and who should do for that at the call?


Thanks
Shinya



2022年12月8日(木) 9:55 MURATA <eb2mmrt@gmail.com<mailto:eb2mmrt@gmail.com>>:
All,

> What do we do after EPUB 3.3?

I propose to submit EPUB 3.3, EPUB RS 3.3, and
EPUB A11Y 1.1 to ISO/IEC JTC1 using the PAS
submission procedure.  In my understanding, the
PAS agreement between W3C and JTC1 implies
that JTC1 will attach cover pages and will not touch
anything.  This is how WCAG 2.0 was published
as ISO/IEC 40500:2012.

Replacing old versions in JTC1 by new versions
is good for avoiding unnecessary confusion.  In
particular, I can start to revise the JIS version
of EPUB A11Y.

Regards,
Makoto

2022年12月7日(水) 23:20 Reid, Wendy <wendy.reid@rakuten.com<mailto:wendy.reid@rakuten.com>>:
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慶應義塾大学政策・メディア研究科特任教授
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