- From: Annette Greiner <amgreiner@lbl.gov>
- Date: Fri, 26 Aug 2016 16:37:39 -0700
- To: Bernadette Farias Lóscio <bfl@cin.ufpe.br>, Deirdre Lee <deirdre@derilinx.com>
- Cc: Data on the Web Best Practices Working Group <public-dwbp-wg@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <903a7cd0-d4f9-b7eb-0b04-8d6ffeafeb77@lbl.gov>
I've made a pull request with the changes we discussed this morning.
https://github.com/w3c/dwbp/pull/439/files
-Annette
On 8/25/16 1:57 PM, Bernadette Farias Lóscio wrote:
> Hi Deirdre,
>
> Thanks for the message! I think it's better to keep the example the
> way it is now.
>
> Maybe we can just include a sentence mentioning that "the data is
> already in a locale-specific format and because of this it is
> necessary to include locale parameters metadata. "
>
> cheers,
> Bernadette
>
> 2016-08-25 10:56 GMT-03:00 Deirdre Lee <deirdre@derilinx.com
> <mailto:deirdre@derilinx.com>>:
>
> Hi all,
>
> Thanks for all the comments. In light of the Directors' Call on
> Monday, I think we need to draw a line under this so that we can
> ensure the CR doc in place for tomorrow's meeting.
>
> Addison has approved all comments, which addresses directors'
> concern.
>
> The example in place does depict 'locale-neutral data
> representations', so in that way is fit for purpose. Even if it
> does use metadata.
>
> Alternatively would be to *rewrite *the example, taking into
> account Addison's specific example of bus-fare. Or directly
> *replace *the example text with the following:
>
> For example, rather than storing "€2000,00" as a string, it's
> strongly preferred to exchange a data structure such as:
>
> …
> "price" {
> "value":2000.00,
> "currency":"EUR"
> }
> …
>
>
> I hope I have captured the options succinctly and that this can be
> decided today, so that Phil can finalise the doc at his side.
>
> Cheers,
> Deirdre
>
>
>
>
> On 25/08/2016 01:37, Annette Greiner wrote:
>>
>> Hi Bernadette,
>>
>> Of course you're right that "2015-05-05" can also be data, but in
>> this example it is metadata so it doesn't really function as an
>> example of what the BP is mostly about. We could use the same
>> example as is already in there from Addison, maybe just call it a
>> bus fare. I'll defer to others more familiar with vocabularies
>> for the dct:conformsTo question.
>>
>> -Annette
>>
>>
>> On 8/24/16 11:38 AM, Bernadette Farias Lóscio wrote:
>>> Hi Annette,
>>>
>>> thanks for your answer! Just a brief explanation: I understood
>>> that "2015-05-05" is also *data* and because of this I said that
>>> it is an example of locale-neutral representation.
>>>
>>> I have just two more questions:
>>>
>>> - I am still not sure if we should keep "dct:conformsTo". Should
>>> we keep it?
>>>
>>> - I understand that to have an example of locale-neutral
>>> representation we should present some instances from the
>>> dataset. But I don't see how to do this considering the dataset
>>> attributes and their corresponding data types [1]. Could you
>>> please give me an example?
>>>
>>> cheers,
>>> Bernadette
>>>
>>> [1]
>>> http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/dwbp-example.html#dataset-structural-metadata
>>> <http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/dwbp-example.html#dataset-structural-metadata>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> 2016-08-24 14:32 GMT-03:00 Annette Greiner <amgreiner@lbl.gov
>>> <mailto:amgreiner@lbl.gov>>:
>>>
>>> I think it's a fine idea to put both the locale-neutral and
>>> the metadata approaches into example 13, but the metadata is
>>> not an example of a locale-neutral representation of the
>>> *data*. We need to show that in the data itself.
>>>
>>> -Annette
>>>
>>>
>>> On 8/24/16 4:56 AM, Bernadette Farias Lóscio wrote:
>>>> Hi all,
>>>>
>>>> @Phil, thanks a lot for making the updates! @Annette and
>>>> Addison thanks for the comments and suggestions!
>>>>
>>>> I agree with the changes made until now, but I'd like to
>>>> answer the following comment:
>>>>
>>>> Finally, the example marked prominently as Example
>>>> 13 looks like the
>>>> primary suggestion for implementing the BP, which
>>>> it isn't anymore. I
>>>> think the 2000 Euro example should be at least as
>>>> prominently marked.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I sympathise but I'm going to have to leave that to the
>>>> editors. It can be done by simply adding
>>>> class="example" to the <pre> element. But, doing that
>>>> then means that the example numbers will be out of step
>>>> with the BP numbers from that that point on, which I
>>>> *think* editors have been anxious to avoid?
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> I don't think its a good idea to change the numbers of the
>>>> examples. One solution could be to make some changes on the
>>>> example 13.
>>>>
>>>> Example 13 shows both the use of locale-neutral
>>>> representation and locale-parameters metadata. We have the
>>>> tag "xsd:date" in 'dct:issued "2015-05-05"^^xsd:date', but
>>>> we also have 'dct:conformsTo
>>>> <http://www.iso.org/iso/home/standards/iso8601.htm
>>>> <http://www.iso.org/iso/home/standards/iso8601.htm>>' to
>>>> indicate the standard adopted as date format.
>>>>
>>>> :stops-2015-05-05
>>>>
>>>> a dcat:Dataset ;
>>>> dct:title "Bus stops of MyCity" ;
>>>> dcat:keyword "transport","mobility","bus" ;
>>>> dct:issued "2015-05-05"^^xsd:date ;
>>>> dcat:contactPoint
>>>> <http://data.mycity.example.com/transport/contact
>>>> <http://data.mycity.example.com/transport/contact>> ;
>>>> dct:temporal
>>>> <http://reference.data.gov.uk/id/year/2015
>>>> <http://reference.data.gov.uk/id/year/2015>> ;
>>>> dct:spatial <http://www.geonames.org/3399415
>>>> <http://www.geonames.org/3399415>> ;
>>>> dct:publisher :transport-agency-mycity ;
>>>> dct:accrualPeriodicity
>>>> <http://purl.org/linked-data/sdmx/2009/code#freq-A
>>>> <http://purl.org/linked-data/sdmx/2009/code#freq-A>> ;
>>>> dcat:theme :mobility ;
>>>> dcat:distribution :stops-2015-05-05.csv ;
>>>> dct:language
>>>> <http://id.loc.gov/vocabulary/iso639-1/en
>>>> <http://id.loc.gov/vocabulary/iso639-1/en>> ,
>>>>
>>>> <http://id.loc.gov/vocabulary/iso639-1/pt
>>>> <http://id.loc.gov/vocabulary/iso639-1/pt>> ;
>>>> dct:conformsTo
>>>> <http://www.iso.org/iso/home/standards/iso8601.htm
>>>> <http://www.iso.org/iso/home/standards/iso8601.htm>> ;
>>>> .
>>>>
>>>> Should we have both ou just xsd:date? If I understood
>>>> correct, I think we should keep just xsd:date. In this
>>>> case, we can also change the example description to mention
>>>> that we are using a locale-neutral representation for date
>>>> and a locale-parameter metadata (dct:language) to specify
>>>> the languages in which dataset is published. See the
>>>> suggestion below:
>>>>
>>>> The example below shows the use of xsd:date providing a
>>>> local-neutral representation for the issue date of the bus
>>>> stops dataset (|stops-2015-05-05|). Considering that the
>>>> data from the bus stops dataset is already in a
>>>> locale-specific format, then the property |dct:language|
>>>> is used to declare the languages the dataset is published
>>>> in. If the dataset is available in multiple languages, use
>>>> multiple values for this property.
>>>>
>>>> :stops-2015-05-05
>>>>
>>>> a dcat:Dataset ;
>>>> dct:title "Bus stops of MyCity" ;
>>>> dcat:keyword "transport","mobility","bus" ;
>>>> dct:issued "2015-05-05"^^xsd:date ;
>>>> dcat:contactPoint
>>>> <http://data.mycity.example.com/transport/contact
>>>> <http://data.mycity.example.com/transport/contact>> ;
>>>> dct:temporal
>>>> <http://reference.data.gov.uk/id/year/2015
>>>> <http://reference.data.gov.uk/id/year/2015>> ;
>>>> dct:spatial <http://www.geonames.org/3399415
>>>> <http://www.geonames.org/3399415>> ;
>>>> dct:publisher :transport-agency-mycity ;
>>>> dct:accrualPeriodicity
>>>> <http://purl.org/linked-data/sdmx/2009/code#freq-A
>>>> <http://purl.org/linked-data/sdmx/2009/code#freq-A>> ;
>>>> dcat:theme :mobility ;
>>>> dcat:distribution :stops-2015-05-05.csv ;
>>>> dct:language
>>>> <http://id.loc.gov/vocabulary/iso639-1/en
>>>> <http://id.loc.gov/vocabulary/iso639-1/en>> ,
>>>>
>>>> <http://id.loc.gov/vocabulary/iso639-1/pt
>>>> <http://id.loc.gov/vocabulary/iso639-1/pt>> ;
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Please, let me know what do you think about this.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks!
>>>>
>>>> Berna
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -Annette
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 8/23/16 7:11 AM, Phillips, Addison wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Phil,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks. This looks good to me.
>>>>
>>>> Addison
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Phil Archer [mailto:phila@w3.org
>>>> <mailto:phila@w3.org>]
>>>> Sent: Tuesday, August 23, 2016 3:29 AM
>>>> To: Phillips, Addison <addison@lab126.com
>>>> <mailto:addison@lab126.com>>; Deirdre Lee
>>>> <deirdre@derilinx.com
>>>> <mailto:deirdre@derilinx.com>>; Bernadette
>>>> Farias Lóscio <bfl@cin.ufpe.br
>>>> <mailto:bfl@cin.ufpe.br>>;
>>>> Annette Greiner <amgreiner@lbl.gov
>>>> <mailto:amgreiner@lbl.gov>>
>>>> Cc: ishida@w3.org <mailto:ishida@w3.org>;
>>>> public-dwbp-comments@w3.org
>>>> <mailto:public-dwbp-comments@w3.org>; www
>>>> International
>>>> <www-international@w3.org
>>>> <mailto:www-international@w3.org>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment] BP3
>>>> should recommend locale-neutral
>>>> representation #187
>>>>
>>>> Thanks again Addison,
>>>>
>>>> Pls see below.
>>>>
>>>> On 22/08/2016 18:36, Phillips, Addison wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Phil,
>>>>
>>>> This looks good. A few comments.
>>>>
>>>> 1. Rather than providing your own
>>>> definition for 'locale', you might
>>>> make
>>>>
>>>> use of the one we provide in LTLI [1].
>>>>
>>>> Done
>>>> http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#locale_parameter
>>>> <http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#locale_parameter>
>>>>
>>>> 2. The "why" is still missing
>>>> something. I would suggest adding a
>>>> new first
>>>>
>>>> paragraph explaining locale-neutral first.
>>>> Something like:
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Data values that are machine-readable
>>>> and not specific to any
>>>> particular
>>>>
>>>> language or culture are more durable and
>>>> less open to
>>>> misinterpretation than
>>>> values that use one of the many different
>>>> cultural representations.
>>>> By using a
>>>> locale-neutral format, systems avoid the
>>>> need to establish specific
>>>> interchange rules that vary according to
>>>> the language or location of
>>>> the user.
>>>>
>>>> When the data is already in a
>>>> locale-specific format, providing locale
>>>> parameters... <rest of existing text>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Done, exactly as you suggest
>>>> http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
>>>> <http://w3c.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata>
>>>>
>>>> With luck... the doc gets a green light
>>>> from you?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks again
>>>>
>>>> Phil.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Hope that helps,
>>>>
>>>> Addison
>>>>
>>>> [1] https://www.w3.org/TR/ltli/#locale
>>>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/ltli/#locale>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Phil Archer
>>>> [mailto:phila@w3.org
>>>> <mailto:phila@w3.org>]
>>>> Sent: Monday, August 22, 2016 2:34 AM
>>>> To: Deirdre Lee
>>>> <deirdre@derilinx.com
>>>> <mailto:deirdre@derilinx.com>>;
>>>> Phillips, Addison
>>>> <addison@lab126.com
>>>> <mailto:addison@lab126.com>>;
>>>> Bernadette Farias Lóscio
>>>> <bfl@cin.ufpe.br
>>>> <mailto:bfl@cin.ufpe.br>>;
>>>> Annette Greiner <amgreiner@lbl.gov
>>>> <mailto:amgreiner@lbl.gov>>
>>>> Cc: ishida@w3.org
>>>> <mailto:ishida@w3.org>;
>>>> public-dwbp-comments@w3.org
>>>> <mailto:public-dwbp-comments@w3.org>;
>>>> www International
>>>> <www-international@w3.org
>>>> <mailto:www-international@w3.org>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [i18n review comment]
>>>> BP3 should recommend
>>>> locale-neutral representation #187
>>>>
>>>> Dear all,
>>>>
>>>> I have taken further steps on this.
>>>> The result can be seen at
>>>> http://philarcher1.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
>>>> <http://philarcher1.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata>
>>>>
>>>> 1. Addision's text used more or
>>>> less verbatim; 1a. taken account of
>>>> Annette's suggestion; 1b. replaced
>>>> inline links to BCP47 and CLDR with
>>>>
>>>> references 2.
>>>>
>>>> title of the BP changed to Use
>>>> locale-neutral data representations 3.
>>>> moved to Data Formats section as
>>>> resolved in WG meeting on Friday; 4.
>>>> added R- FormatMachineRead to list
>>>> of evidence and thereby updated
>>>> the UCR cross matching; 5. updated
>>>> the Challenges SVG diagram; 6.
>>>> updated my Pull request.
>>>>
>>>> NB, I *retained* the old ID for the
>>>> BP so that any links to
>>>> #LocaleParametersMetadata will
>>>> still work. I know there are some of
>>>> these, for example, in the
>>>> Share-PSI project.
>>>>
>>>> HTH
>>>>
>>>> Phil.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 22/08/2016 08:52, Deirdre Lee wrote:
>>>>
>>>> HI,
>>>>
>>>> Thank you for your comments
>>>> Addison. I think they make
>>>> sense and
>>>> should be straight-forward to
>>>> incorporate.
>>>>
>>>> The title of the BP should
>>>> probably also be updated to
>>>> something
>>>> like 'Provide locale-neutral data'
>>>>
>>>> Phil and DWBP editors, in
>>>> Friday's meeting we also agreed
>>>> to move
>>>> BP3 to the Data Formats section
>>>> from the Metadata section, which
>>>> would make it BP14, right?
>>>>
>>>> Kind regards,
>>>>
>>>> Deirdre
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 19/08/2016 17:39, Phillips,
>>>> Addison wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Phil,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for starting on
>>>> this. I think the pull
>>>> request is a good
>>>> start.
>>>> I have some comments on it.
>>>>
>>>> My main concern is that
>>>> this BP is really
>>>> backwards. It recommends
>>>> to "locale parameter
>>>> metadata" and then says
>>>> that the simplest way
>>>> to do this is to use
>>>> locale-neutral formats. The
>>>> recommendation
>>>> should be more like "use
>>>> locale-neutral formats or
>>>> provide
>>>> locale/language information
>>>> where that's not possible".
>>>> The pull
>>>> request captures the use of
>>>> locale-neutral, but doesn't
>>>> really
>>>> explain about when to
>>>> provide locale and language
>>>> information.
>>>>
>>>> I would change this:
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> <p
>>>> class="practicedesc">Provide
>>>> metadata about locale
>>>> parameters
>>>> (date, time, and number
>>>> formats, language).</p>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> To say:
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> <p class="practicedesc">Use
>>>> locale-neutral data
>>>> structures and
>>>> values, or, where that is
>>>> not possible, provide
>>>> metadata about the
>>>> locale used by data values.</p>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> I would change:
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> <p>The simplest method is
>>>> to use local-neutral
>>>> representations of
>>>> the actual data, and then
>>>> add metadata to provide
>>>> relevant locale
>>>> information. For example,
>>>> rather than storing
>>>> "€2000.00" as a
>>>> string, it's strongly
>>>> preferred to exchange a
>>>> data structure such
>>>> as:</p>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> To say:
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> <p>Most common data
>>>> representations are locale
>>>> neutral. For
>>>> example, XML Schema types
>>>> such as xsd:integer and
>>>> xsd: date are
>>>> intended for locale-neutral
>>>> data interchange. Using
>>>> locale-neutral
>>>> representations allows the
>>>> data values to be processed
>>>> accurately
>>>> without complex parsing or
>>>> misinterpretation and also
>>>> allows the
>>>> data to be presented in the
>>>> format most comfortable for the
>>>> consumer of the data. For
>>>> example, rather than
>>>> storing "€2000,00"
>>>> as a string, it's strongly
>>>> preferred to exchange a
>>>> data structure
>>>> such as:</p>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Also, note the misspelling
>>>> of "locale-neutral" in the
>>>> pull request.
>>>>
>>>> I would then go on to add
>>>> some text about when locale
>>>> parameters
>>>> are needed. Something like:
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Some datasets contain
>>>> values that are not or
>>>> cannot be rendered
>>>> into a locale-neutral
>>>> format. This is
>>>> particularly true of any
>>>> natural language text
>>>> values. For each data field
>>>> that can contain
>>>> locale affected or natural
>>>> language text, there should
>>>> be an
>>>> associated language tag
>>>> used to indicate the
>>>> language and locale
>>>> of the
>>>>
>>>> data.
>>>>
>>>> This locale information can
>>>> be used in parsing the data
>>>> or to
>>>> ensure proper presentation
>>>> and processing of the value
>>>> by the
>>>>
>>>> consumer.
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> (Sorry for not generating a
>>>> pull request of my own)
>>>>
>>>> Addison
>>>>
>>>> -----Original Message-----
>>>> From: Phil Archer
>>>> [mailto:phila@w3.org
>>>> <mailto:phila@w3.org>]
>>>> Sent: Friday, August
>>>> 19, 2016 8:37 AM
>>>> To: Bernadette Farias
>>>> Lóscio <bfl@cin.ufpe.br
>>>> <mailto:bfl@cin.ufpe.br>>;
>>>> Annette Greiner
>>>> <amgreiner@lbl.gov
>>>> <mailto:amgreiner@lbl.gov>>
>>>> Cc: Phillips, Addison
>>>> <addison@lab126.com
>>>> <mailto:addison@lab126.com>>;
>>>> ishida@w3.org
>>>> <mailto:ishida@w3.org>;
>>>> public-dwbp-
>>>> comments@w3.org
>>>> <mailto:comments@w3.org>;
>>>> www International
>>>> <www-international@w3.org
>>>> <mailto:www-international@w3.org>>
>>>> Subject: Re: [i18n
>>>> review comment] BP3
>>>> should recommend
>>>> locale-neutral
>>>> representation #187
>>>>
>>>> I took an action on
>>>> today's call to try and
>>>> address this in BP3.
>>>> You can see the results at
>>>>
>>>> http://philarcher1.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
>>>> <http://philarcher1.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata>
>>>>
>>>> This uses some of
>>>> Addison's text directly
>>>> and highlights the value
>>>> of the xsd datatypes -
>>>> but retains enough of
>>>> the original BP for
>>>> it to be an amendment
>>>> rather than a whole new
>>>> one - I hope.
>>>>
>>>> This addresses most of
>>>> the resolution taken
>>>> today [1] but I have
>>>> not moved the BP to the
>>>> formats section. I
>>>> leave that to the
>>>> editors who may want to
>>>> make further changes -
>>>> or argue for it to
>>>> be left where it is, or
>>>> add references from the
>>>> formats section
>>>> or, or,
>>>>
>>>> or...
>>>>
>>>> I've created the Pull
>>>> Request
>>>> https://github.com/w3c/dwbp/pull/447
>>>> <https://github.com/w3c/dwbp/pull/447>
>>>>
>>>> Phil.
>>>>
>>>> [1]
>>>> https://www.w3.org/2016/08/19-dwbp-minutes#resolution02
>>>> <https://www.w3.org/2016/08/19-dwbp-minutes#resolution02>
>>>>
>>>> On 15/08/2016 17:28,
>>>> Bernadette Farias
>>>> Lóscio wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Dear Ishida,
>>>>
>>>> This comment [1] is
>>>> still under
>>>> discussion [4] and
>>>> we'd like to
>>>> ask your opinion
>>>> about two of our
>>>> proposals:
>>>>
>>>> 1. to include
>>>> locale-neutral
>>>> representation
>>>> ideas as part of BP3
>>>> [2], or 2. to
>>>> include a paragraph
>>>> at the introduction
>>>> of Section
>>>> 8.8 Data Formats
>>>> [3] to discuss the
>>>> relevance of having
>>>> local-neutral
>>>> representations.
>>>>
>>>> We also discussed
>>>> the proposal of
>>>> having a new BP and
>>>> we agreed
>>>> that we won't have
>>>> a lot of time for a
>>>> broader review of
>>>> the new
>>>> BP and to collect
>>>> feedback from the
>>>> community.
>>>>
>>>> Thanks a lot!
>>>> DWBP editors
>>>>
>>>> [1]
>>>> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-comments/
>>>> <https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-comments/>
>>>> 2016Jul/0028.html
>>>>
>>>> [2]http://agreiner.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata
>>>> <http://agreiner.github.io/dwbp/bp.html#LocaleParametersMetadata>
>>>>
>>>> [3]
>>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#dataFormats
>>>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#dataFormats>
>>>> [4]
>>>> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-wg/2016Aug/0009
>>>> <https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-dwbp-wg/2016Aug/0009>.
>>>> ht
>>>> ml
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> 2016-08-04 23:26
>>>> GMT+02:00 Annette
>>>> Greiner
>>>> <amgreiner@lbl.gov
>>>> <mailto:amgreiner@lbl.gov>>:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Addison,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your
>>>> response, and
>>>> it does make
>>>> sense. I think
>>>> what I
>>>> am still
>>>> missing is
>>>> whether there
>>>> is guidance we
>>>> can point to as
>>>> to how to
>>>> represent the
>>>> "locale-neutral"
>>>> data so that it can
>>>> most easily be
>>>> made locale
>>>> specific by
>>>> existing tools. You
>>>> mention
>>>> "pre-made
>>>> standards for
>>>> the basic data
>>>> types". Is there
>>>> a recommended
>>>> list we could
>>>>
>>>> reference?
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for your
>>>> help!
>>>> -Annette
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On 8/4/16 12:31
>>>> PM, Phillips,
>>>> Addison wrote:
>>>>
>>>> Hi Annette,
>>>>
>>>> Thanks for
>>>> the note.
>>>> This is a
>>>> personal
>>>> reply not
>>>> on behalf of
>>>> the WG.
>>>>
>>>> Locale
>>>> neutral
>>>> formats are
>>>> quite
>>>> common on
>>>> the Web and the
>>>> Internet in
>>>> general.
>>>> One
>>>> familiar
>>>> format
>>>> referenced
>>>> by your
>>>> document,
>>>> for
>>>> example, is
>>>> XML Schema.
>>>> While the
>>>>
>>>> representations
>>>>
>>>> of numbers,
>>>> dates, and
>>>> the like in
>>>> XML Schema
>>>> would be "more
>>>> appropriate"
>>>> for some
>>>> languages/locales
>>>> than others
>>>> if given as
>>>> plain text,
>>>> what
>>>> distinguishes
>>>> them is
>>>> that they
>>>> are all
>>>> machine
>>>> readable
>>>> and intended to
>>>>
>>>> be read by machines for
>>>> later processing.
>>>>
>>>> The display
>>>> of values
>>>> is a
>>>> separate,
>>>> local,
>>>> concern for the
>>>> data's
>>>> consumer.
>>>> This
>>>> necessarily
>>>> means
>>>> choosing
>>>> specific
>>>> separators
>>>> (such as
>>>> decimal
>>>> separators)
>>>> over other,
>>>> more
>>>> localized
>>>> values.
>>>> Save for "free
>>>>
>>>> text"
>>>>
>>>> (natural
>>>> language)
>>>> data, most
>>>> data
>>>> formats are
>>>> locale neutral
>>>> and these
>>>> include
>>>> things like
>>>> JSON-LD,
>>>> XML Schema,
>>>> CSV, and so
>>>>
>>>> forth.
>>>>
>>>> Not every
>>>> possible
>>>> data
>>>> structure
>>>> or data
>>>> value is,
>>>> of course,
>>>> covered
>>>> fully. For
>>>> example, in
>>>> my day job
>>>> (I work at
>>>> Amazon),
>>>> we have
>>>> many
>>>> different
>>>> common
>>>> measurement
>>>> units defined
>>>>
>>>> internally.
>>>>
>>>> To transmit
>>>> these in a
>>>> locale-neutral
>>>> manner, we
>>>> need to
>>>> construct
>>>> our own
>>>> data
>>>> schemas and
>>>> identifiers.
>>>> There are
>>>> profoundly
>>>> many ways
>>>> to measure
>>>> shoes,
>>>> dresses,
>>>> auto parts,
>>>> hats, drone
>>>> propellers,
>>>> and so
>>>> forth. But
>>>> it would be a
>>>> nightmare
>>>> to have to
>>>> deal with
>>>> localized
>>>>
>>>> presentation formats on
>>>> top of that.
>>>>
>>>> But there
>>>> are
>>>> pre-made
>>>> standards
>>>> for the
>>>> basic data
>>>> types and
>>>> these are
>>>> what are
>>>> needed to
>>>> build
>>>> almost any
>>>> data structure
>>>> necessary
>>>> for global
>>>> interchange
>>>> of data.
>>>>
>>>> Does that
>>>> make sense?
>>>>
>>>> Addison
>>>>
>>>> Addison
>>>> Phillips
>>>> Principal
>>>> SDE, I18N
>>>> Architect
>>>> (Amazon)
>>>> Chair (W3C
>>>> I18N WG)
>>>>
>>>> Internationalization
>>>> is not a
>>>> feature.
>>>> It is an
>>>> architecture.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> -----Original
>>>> Message-----
>>>>
>>>> From:
>>>> Annette
>>>> Greiner
>>>> [mailto:amgreiner@lbl.gov
>>>> <mailto:amgreiner@lbl.gov>]
>>>> Sent:
>>>> Thursday,
>>>> August
>>>> 04,
>>>> 2016
>>>> 12:04 PM
>>>> To:
>>>> ishida@w3.org
>>>> <mailto:ishida@w3.org>;
>>>> public-dwbp-comments@w3.org
>>>> <mailto:public-dwbp-comments@w3.org>
>>>> Cc: www
>>>> International
>>>> <www-international@w3.org
>>>> <mailto:www-international@w3.org>>
>>>> Subject:
>>>> Re:
>>>> [i18n
>>>> review
>>>> comment]
>>>> BP3
>>>> should
>>>> recommend
>>>> locale-neutral
>>>> representation
>>>> #187
>>>>
>>>> Hello
>>>> on
>>>> behalf
>>>> of the
>>>> DWBP WG,
>>>>
>>>> We're
>>>> interested
>>>> in
>>>> pursuing
>>>> this
>>>> concept
>>>> in our
>>>> best
>>>> practice
>>>> document,
>>>> but we
>>>> would
>>>> like
>>>> some
>>>> clarification
>>>> of the
>>>> practice
>>>> of
>>>> locale
>>>> neutrality.
>>>> You
>>>> mention
>>>> the
>>>> variation
>>>> across
>>>> locales
>>>> in
>>>> decimal
>>>> symbol,
>>>> grouping
>>>> symbol,
>>>> number
>>>> of
>>>> grouping
>>>> digits,
>>>> digit
>>>> shapes,
>>>> etc.,
>>>> and you
>>>> give an
>>>> example
>>>> of a
>>>> locale-neutral
>>>> data
>>>> structure
>>>> for
>>>> monetary
>>>>
>>>> values.
>>>>
>>>> But
>>>> this
>>>> structure
>>>> alone
>>>> does
>>>> not
>>>> appear
>>>> to address
>>>> differences
>>>> in
>>>> decimal
>>>> symbol,
>>>> grouping
>>>> symbol,
>>>> number of
>>>> grouping
>>>> digits,
>>>> or
>>>> digit
>>>> shapes.
>>>> It does
>>>> provide
>>>> a mechanism
>>>> to
>>>> separately
>>>> specify
>>>> the
>>>> units,
>>>> and the
>>>> example
>>>> uses an
>>>> ISO-4217
>>>> currency
>>>> code,
>>>> both of
>>>> which
>>>> we
>>>> agree
>>>> are
>>>> good ideas.
>>>> Is
>>>> there a
>>>> broad
>>>> standard
>>>> (beyond
>>>> just
>>>> monetary)
>>>> for
>>>> addressing
>>>> the
>>>> other
>>>> symbol/representation
>>>> issues
>>>> you raised
>>>> that we
>>>> can address
>>>>
>>>> briefly in our best practice?
>>>>
>>>> Do you
>>>> consider
>>>> SI
>>>> units
>>>> consistent
>>>> with a
>>>> locale-neutral
>>>>
>>>> approach?
>>>>
>>>> Is
>>>> there a
>>>> locale-neutral
>>>> standard
>>>> for
>>>> representing
>>>> decimal
>>>> numbers
>>>> (perhaps
>>>> using a
>>>> period
>>>> and no
>>>> grouping,
>>>> as in your
>>>>
>>>> example)?
>>>>
>>>> -Annette
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On
>>>> 7/22/16
>>>> 5:32
>>>> AM,
>>>> ishida@w3.org
>>>> <mailto:ishida@w3.org>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>> [raised
>>>> by
>>>> aphillips]
>>>>
>>>> https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#LocaleParametersMetadata
>>>> <https://www.w3.org/TR/dwbp/#LocaleParametersMetadata>
>>>>
>>>> Best
>>>> practice
>>>> #3
>>>> introduces
>>>> itself
>>>> as:
>>>>
>>>> Providing
>>>> locale
>>>> parameters
>>>> helps
>>>> humans
>>>> and
>>>> computer
>>>> applications
>>>> to
>>>> work
>>>> accurately
>>>> with
>>>> things
>>>> like
>>>> dates,
>>>> currencies
>>>> and
>>>> numbers
>>>> that
>>>> may
>>>> look
>>>> similar
>>>> but
>>>> have
>>>> different
>>>> meanings
>>>> in
>>>> different
>>>> locales.
>>>>
>>>> But
>>>> the
>>>> actual
>>>> best
>>>> practice
>>>> is
>>>> to
>>>> use
>>>> **locale-neutral**
>>>> representations
>>>> that
>>>> are
>>>> interpreted/displayed
>>>> to
>>>> end-users
>>>> in
>>>> a
>>>> locale-appropriate
>>>> manner.
>>>> For
>>>> example,
>>>> instead
>>>> of
>>>> storing
>>>> the
>>>> string
>>>> "€2000.00",
>>>> exchanging
>>>> a
>>>> data
>>>> structure
>>>> like
>>>> the
>>>> following
>>>> is
>>>> strongly
>>>> preferred:
>>>>
>>>> ```
>>>> "price"
>>>> {
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> "value":
>>>> 2000.00,
>>>> "currency":
>>>> "EUR"
>>>> }
>>>> ```
>>>>
>>>> The
>>>> date
>>>> examples
>>>> given
>>>> are
>>>> all
>>>> in
>>>> xsd:date
>>>> format,
>>>> which
>>>> is
>>>> an
>>>> excellent
>>>> example
>>>> of
>>>> using
>>>> a
>>>> locale-neutral
>>>> format.
>>>>
>>>> Many
>>>> things
>>>> are
>>>> dependent
>>>> on
>>>> locale:
>>>> decimal
>>>> symbol,
>>>>
>>>> grouping
>>>>
>>>> symbol,
>>>> number
>>>> of
>>>> grouping
>>>> digits,
>>>> digit
>>>> shapes,
>>>> etc.
>>>> It's
>>>> because
>>>> there
>>>> can
>>>> be
>>>> wide
>>>> variation
>>>> (sometimes
>>>> open to
>>>> misinterpretation)
>>>> that
>>>> sending
>>>> a
>>>> locale
>>>> neutral
>>>> format
>>>> is
>>>>
>>>> preferred for data values.
>>>>
>>>> Note
>>>> also
>>>> btw
>>>> that
>>>> the
>>>> position
>>>> of
>>>> the
>>>> currency
>>>> symbol
>>>> is
>>>> dependent
>>>> on
>>>> the
>>>> locale.
>>>> In
>>>> France
>>>> it
>>>> would
>>>> be
>>>> normal
>>>> to
>>>> write
>>>>
>>>> 2000.00 € rather than
>>>> €2000.00.
>>>>
>>>> Same
>>>> even
>>>> when
>>>> talking
>>>> about
>>>> USD
>>>> when
>>>> using
>>>> $,
>>>> ie.
>>>> 2000.00
>>>> $.
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>> Annette
>>>> Greiner
>>>> NERSC
>>>> Data
>>>> and
>>>> Analytics
>>>> Services
>>>> Lawrence
>>>> Berkeley
>>>> National
>>>> Laboratory
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Annette Greiner
>>>> NERSC Data and
>>>> Analytics
>>>> Services
>>>> Lawrence
>>>> Berkeley National
>>>> Laboratory
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Phil Archer
>>>> W3C Data Activity Lead
>>>> http://www.w3.org/2013/data/
>>>>
>>>> http://philarcher.org
>>>> +44 (0)7887 767755
>>>> <tel:%2B44%20%280%297887%20767755>
>>>> @philarcher1
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Phil Archer
>>>> W3C Data Activity Lead
>>>> http://www.w3.org/2013/data/
>>>>
>>>> http://philarcher.org
>>>> +44 (0)7887 767755
>>>> <tel:%2B44%20%280%297887%20767755>
>>>> @philarcher1
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Phil Archer
>>>> W3C Data Activity Lead
>>>> http://www.w3.org/2013/data/
>>>>
>>>> http://philarcher.org
>>>> +44 (0)7887 767755
>>>> <tel:%2B44%20%280%297887%20767755>
>>>> @philarcher1
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> Phil Archer
>>>> W3C Data Activity Lead
>>>> http://www.w3.org/2013/data/
>>>>
>>>> http://philarcher.org
>>>> +44 (0)7887 767755 <tel:%2B44%20%280%297887%20767755>
>>>> @philarcher1
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> --
>>>> Bernadette Farias Lóscio
>>>> Centro de Informática
>>>> Universidade Federal de Pernambuco - UFPE, Brazil
>>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>>
>>> --
>>> Annette Greiner
>>> NERSC Data and Analytics Services
>>> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>>
>>> --
>>> Bernadette Farias Lóscio
>>> Centro de Informática
>>> Universidade Federal de Pernambuco - UFPE, Brazil
>>> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
>>
>> --
>> Annette Greiner
>> NERSC Data and Analytics Services
>> Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
>>
>
> --
> ------------------------------------
> Deirdre Lee, CEO & Founder
> Derilinx - Linked & Open Data Solutions
>
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> --
> Bernadette Farias Lóscio Centro de Informática Universidade Federal de
> Pernambuco - UFPE, Brazil
> ----------------------------------------------------------------------------
--
Annette Greiner
NERSC Data and Analytics Services
Lawrence Berkeley National Laboratory
Received on Friday, 26 August 2016 23:38:21 UTC