[MINUTES] W3C CCG {\rtf1\ansi\ansicpg1252\cocoartf2639 Call - 2022-08-08

Thanks to Our Robot Overlords and Our Robot Overlords for scribing this week!

The transcript for the call is now available here:


Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes.
Audio of the meeting is available at the following location:


education\ Transcript for 2022-08-08

  1. IP Note\
  2. Call Notes\
  3. Introductions & Reintrodcutions\
  4. main topic - Plugfest AMA & Protocols review\
  Our Robot Overlords and Our Robot Overlords
  Simone Ravaoli, Jeff / Turing Certs, Wei - Turing Chain Limited, 
  Wei/Turing Certs, Chandi Cumaranatunge, Azeem., Kaliya Young, 
  Jeff O - HumanOS, David Chadwick, Andy Griebel, Kerri Lemoie, 
  Enrico, Joe Kaplan, Dave McCool, Steph Correa (she/her), Sharon 
  Leu, Evan Lally (Digital Bazaar), xander - ASU/Pocket, JoAdel, 
  Akshar Patel, Jonathan Bethune, Manu Sporny, David Ward, John 
  Kuo, Andy Miller, Stuart Freeman, Phil L (P1), Allyson Parco, 
  Brookings, Colin, Learning Economy, Julie Dunlap, James 
  Chartrand, Tayken (LEF), Deepak, Jim Kelly, Tim Bouma, Marty 
  Reed, Fiona, Phil Barker, Dmitri Zagidulin, Kayode Ezike, Jon St. 
  John, Janko, Jacob W

<jeff_/_turing_certs> Great meeting you! I am trying out the 
<kerri_lemoie> Hello all\
Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Good morning everyone this is Monday 
  August 8th we are convening here the w3c verifiable credentials 
  for education's task force as every week we have an agenda 
  specific agenda for for us to discuss but first we need to go 
  through a few housekeeping things which I'm happy to go through 
  as I will be today's moderator.\

Topic: IP Note\

<manu_sporny> /me hrm - recording isn't started, but 
  transcription is?\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): So this is an IP note as you probably 
  know everyone can participate in this calls but if you are a 
  contributor to any of this work the credentials committee group 
  work you need to be a member of this g.i. credentials community 
  group and have full IP our agreement signed the links to those 
  are in the email that you may receive with the agenda but we'll 
  make sure to share them again you just have to have w3c.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): ID contributor license.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Which again are things that we think 
  recording has stopped.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): The recording has stopped so let me see 
  if there is.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): I can't we start this again all right.\
<jeff_/_turing_certs> Simone, could you send the email for 
  signing to jeff.hu@turingchain.tech as well? Thanks so much!\
Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Recording is on.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Quickly the IP notes anyone can 
  participate in this calls but if you are a contributor you need 
  to be a member of the credentials community group and sign IPR 
  agreements those are linked in our emails with the agenda call 
  notes we are recording if possible this meeting and it will be 
  minutes of everything that is said and we archive those online 
  for later review.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU):  and to queue up speaker.\

Topic: Call Notes\

Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): We preferably use either you can raise 
  your hands or add q+ in the chat and that will cure you up and 
  when we call you out you can contribute so thank you very much 
  for that now moving to introductions and range reductions we have 
  about 30 participants some of which here are never been without 
  so anyone willing to introduce themselves to this moment.\
Enrico: Everyone my name is Emma and I'm interested in these 
  topics and Simona give me the opportunity to join the meeting so 
  thanks a lot of ammonia I work for elastic company behind the 
  elasticsearch but I'm interested for these topics more about my 
  teaching activities because I'm a professor at ETS CCTV monitor 
  in it.\
Enrico:  that's it.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): It's great to have you here and record 
  thanks for joining us.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Let me throw it over to Jeff from 
  tearing starts.\
<kerri_lemoie> Welcome @Enrico!\
Jeff_/_Turing_Certs: Right I think you assimilate I'm Jeff from 
  train starts we are we pleasing Taiwan and Tokyo so mostly 
  serving like governments and schools based in the East Asia and 
  the reason why we are here is because I had a call with Sharon 
  new from the the FF laps and she said oh we're doing that very 
  few people potential for called.\
<sharon_leu> Hi Jeff! Glad you are able to join!\
<joadel> Happy to into myself.\
<kerri_lemoie> Welcome Jeff!\
Jeff_/_Turing_Certs: 120 school was in Asia we should be we 
  should be doing become the part of the community so it really 
  glad to meet your own and which to collaborate with you and use 
  the same particle standard honor for the feature thank you so 

Topic: Introductions & Reintrodcutions\

Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Thank you very much Jeff and thanks for 
  joining us from such a different time zone here I think we have a 
  pretty good coverage and I love the fact that we have more and 
  more newcomers joining the group that are located outside of 
  North America in so that probably balances out our representation 
  here that's great anyone else that wants to introduce themselves 
  to a re introduce themselves please do so now.\
Steph_Correa_(she/her): Hi I'm Stephen Correa/\ I work with 
  Sharon at jff Labs I just started the team last week so I'm 
  sitting in to see everything that I can learn and thank you so 
  much for letting me join the meeting today.\
<kerri_lemoie> Welcome!\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Absolutely please join us in the next 
  few weeks to alright great so I want to review the main topics of 
  the agenda today and then share it with my co-chairs and 
  contributors today the rest of the meeting as you may have seen 
  from our agenda we want to do a couple things today the first one 
  is to provide space to answer any questions.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): You may have.\
<steph_correa_(she/her)> Thank you so much @kerri!\
<jeff_/_turing_certs> Thanks Sharon for inviting us over. Awesome 
  to meet you all!\

Topic: main topic - Plugfest AMA & Protocols review\

Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): On the interoperability plugfest number 
  two that we've been planning the other is to go through a bit of 
  a review high-level review of the main protocols that will be 
  involved in the plot Fest so with that said I'd say we could 
  start with the ask me anything session of today's call to do 
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU):  I'd like to ask.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Going to be.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Me - I had a couple of times already 
  before to to join me here in taking any questions that you may 
  have across you know Logistics or more content related anything 
  really the idea is that we're going to capture this questions I'm 
  going to drop a link in the chat right now which is a Google doc 
  that we started to capture any questions that you may not feel 
  comfortable in asking directly or that you want to be traced so 
  that should be a support.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU):  hello Sharon how are you.\
Sharon Leu:  Good morning so many I am here can you all hear me 
Sharon Leu: https://w3c-ccg.github.io/vc-ed/plugfest-2-2022/\
Sharon Leu:  A great so today is a really exciting day I am going 
  to drop a link into the chat as well thank you to carry who stood 
  up this website super fast this morning for us but this is a 
  project page off of the main VC edu work sort of project page 
  that will be where we hold all of the information about the 
  second plugfest and it has some of the initial FAQ that we 
  started off with based on some of the questions that have been 
  asked previously.\
Sharon Leu:   And so what I'm going to do right now sort of.\
<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> and if you have questions for AMA 
  today... you can drop them here 
Sharon Leu:  Human very quickly and then leave it open for some 
  additional questions and I know that Simona has a document for 
  you if you're too shy to ask your question but hopefully you're 
  not too shy because this is a very this is you know a low-key 
  kind of just ask anything because you'll want to know the answer 
  situation so what I wanted to say is that we are opening the 
  participation for our second plugfest and many of you on this 
  call were able to participate.\
Sharon Leu:   Eight in the first plugfest and so we are excited 
  that you are.\
Sharon Leu:  More and definitely please continue to share with us 
  like feedback on logistically how we could coordinate this better 
  so we are opening it today and the form is a Google form that is 
  linked in the web page as well and the participation will be open 
  until noon Eastern on Friday September 9th that gives you a whole 
  month to think about how like how if you want to participate how 
  you want to participate and the answers to some potentially 
  tricky questions on the form.\
Sharon Leu:   ERM and.\
Sharon Leu:  Monday September 12th at 11:00 Eastern which is this 
  weekly call we will have notified all of the participants about 
  whether or not they're in mostly we will just be reviewing some 
  of the information that you sent on that spreadsheet on the 
  Google form and probably notifying people on an ongoing rolling 
  basis but definitely cut off that will let you know is by 
  September 12th because at that point we will need to start doing 
  some real work you will also find on that website list of our 
  tentative schedule.\
Sharon Leu:   September 14th is going to be when we kick off the 
Sharon Leu:  This is going to be a really fun kickoff I think 
  that well I don't know I had fun last time but maybe that's just 
  me and then we will try a regular Cadence of meeting every two 
  weeks on the form I did ask this is a lesson learned from last 
  time what is your time zone that you prefer meeting so hopefully 
  we'll coordinate times that work for everyone or either split the 
  groups or we will try to make this a little bit more palatable 
  for people across a range of time zones tentatively we.\
Sharon Leu:   Have final demo videos do on never made ninth ahead 
  of demo day.\
Sharon Leu:  14 And the Monday before I W starts in California so 
  hopefully we'll see some of you in person and again the logistics 
  of a virtual and in-person event would love your thoughts and 
  feedback on if you participated the first time what we can do 
  better for the next time so generally this plugfest Builds on our 
  previous one in plugfest one we invited wallet implementers to 
  display a verifiable credential in their wallet we're sort of.\
Sharon Leu:   Of we're upping the stakes this time and we're 
  saying that not.\
Sharon Leu:  To display one verifiable credential in your wallet 
  but you have to display two that are not issued by yourself and 
  in addition we've opened it up for any criticism credential 
  issuing platform to participate as well because we want to 
  iterate towards using real credentials that are in a live 
  production environment so that's the general overview of it and I 
  think that what I'll say is before I tee it up for the rest of 
  the conversation is that.\
Sharon Leu:   We are not going to choose for you how to issue the 
<kaliya> Just a note -  I\'92m calling in via my phone and the 
  system isn\'92t letting me scroll backwards to see link.\
Sharon Leu:  You have three options of how to issue the 
  credentials you can issue them in the VC API chappie format the 
  open ID connect as well as did come presentation exchange you 
  pick how you want to as a wallet receive the credential and 
  issuers can pick how they would like to issue so we're not going 
  to dictate we're going to let this be sort of a how does the 
  market look in education and Workforce right now and follow that 
Sharon Leu:   And I think the.\
<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> To collect questions: 
Sharon Leu:  The final thing I'll say is if you did not 
  participate in plugfest one no problem we welcome you to podcasts 
  to anyway we did have a section in the forum for you to provide 
  some additional information for us essentially we will ask you to 
  also demonstrate that you can hold a verifiable credential in 
  your wallet we will issue a to you to any did that you let us 
  know what it is and in any format that you want but that will be 
  your ticket in is that you have to demonstrate that your wallet 
  can do.\
Sharon Leu:   Ooh that so I think that's the general overview and 
  I will kick.\
<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> PlugFest#2 
Sharon Leu:  14 Questions if there are any or I don't know if 
  some oneg carry if I missed anything.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): I think that's a great overview Sharon 
  thank you very much I'm checking in in the chat if anyone has 
  questions on your intro again so if you do have questions q+ in 
  the chat or raise your hand and we'll give you the floor.\
<kerri_lemoie> Great overview, @sharon\
<kerri_lemoie> Plugfest 2: 
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): What's Oakley was asking for links will 
  drop them again there for sure so I mean obviously today we 
  definitely want to focus on plugfest if people are still shy or 
  thinking about the questions that they may have given that what 
  you said Sharon is that there is going to be possibly three main 
  ways of issuing these credentials depending on the protocols that 
  you decide to use.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU):  probably would be good for us.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Review those protocols and I'm sure 
  that that may create questions that we can go back and address 
  but before we do that carry over to you.\
Kerri Lemoie:  Thanks there was just one thing that I don't think 
  Sharon mentioned is which is that as looks like first one with 
  plugfest to we are encouraging all of this work to happen out in 
  the open so we are going to be using the mailing list and we can 
  have calls I have bcig you and basically what we're hoping is 
  that your participation in the plugfest will help inform the 
  ecosystem so that others can learn about how all of this works so 
  just keep that in mind.\
Kerri Lemoie:   And if you're deciding you're going to 
  participate or not.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): So maybe I'd like to invite Dimitri to 
  join us here in stage and Dimitri maybe we can fly over the three 
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU):  how do you say.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  All right that sounds good he let me post a 
  link to the slides in chat let me just one second.\
Dmitri Zagidulin: 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  All right so here are the slides and I'm also 
  going to share my screen.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  And then we can start before we get into it 
  are there any general questions about the upcoming plugfest.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): I think it can go right.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Into the protocols are be reviewed 
  metrium I'll collect some of them and bring them up to you.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  All right sounds good and if you don't mind I 
  I can't quite easily see the chat so if somebody has a question 
  as we go please let me know and we'll get started all right so 
  let's go over some of the issuing protocols and let's go over 
  what we mean by that and why it's important.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  The context is although these are things if 
  you're working with verifiable credentials that your team should 
  be familiar with in general and you need to make these decisions 
  as part of your overall strategy in general today we're going to 
  talk about specifically the context of the jobs for the Future 
  Foundation plugfest number two so plug this number one.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:   Focused on.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Operability of displaying the credentials.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Adebisi into wallets somehow and then let's 
  demonstrate that we recognize how to display the credential how 
  to display the various fields in it and so on.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  This upcoming one is actually going to be 
  focusing on that getting into the wallet somehow.\
<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> @Phil - do you want to ask your 
  question now or can it wait until Dmitry is through ?\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  The idea here is we want to demonstrate and we 
  want to encourage an ecosystem.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Operability between issuers on walnuts we want 
  to demonstrate that.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Get a verifiable credential into any 
  compatible wallet during a wallet that speaks the protocol.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  And vice versa.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  So what kind of what's the user story here 
  what do we mean by that.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  He really simple use case that we're trying to 
  demonstrate interrupt for I should be familiar to everybody here 
  in this group.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Lerner has completed a course the eligible to 
  receive a credential from from the issuing Institution.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Now how do we get that credential.\
<phil_l_(p1)> @Simone - my question is does the interoperability 
  question address credentials issued by an issuing platform (as I 
  think Sharon mentioned) as well as a credential issued by another 
  wallet to another wallet?\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Interviews possession into a wallet.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Similarly if you are and this is a very the 
  second one is very real use case being implemented right now by 
  McMaster University in Toronto and I think we have the architect 
  of that use case on the call here but.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  University issues digital diplomas verifiable 
  credential format okay so how do we get that diploma into.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  It uses possession so the focus is preventing 
  vendor lock-in because.\
<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> thx Phil !\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  If one party controls both issue platform and 
  the wallet there's no need for standardization right they can 
  somehow transfer the credential or just keep it on their servers 
  in their database the reason we're all here for the verifiable 
  credential self-administered ecosystem is so that we can decouple 
  the individual players offer user choice in where to keep their 
  credential and offer.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:   Make it easier for.\
<phil_l_(p1)> @Simone  :+1:\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Part of learning institutions so that prevents 
  the vendor lock-in and all that stuff okay.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  A couple things to notice here.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  We specifically focusing on issuer to wallet 
  interop the assumed.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  DD implicit claim here is that unlike previous 
  iterations of Technologies like let's say PDF files or Word 
  documents or expose Excel spreadsheets.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  We of the community.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Have achieved the consensus that.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  In order to get the full use out of verifiable 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  We're going to need to support some fairly 
  difficult new operations.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Meaning we can no longer treat their fabric 
  Ranchos as just files right if we were talking about PDFs.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Like I received a diploma in PDF or any or 
  Word document or any other such credential you can only say oh 
  you can just download it into their computer or into their phone 
  and just store it with the other files and then later when 
  presenting to the verifiers they can upload the credential to the 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  We're not saying that's impossible that's 
  still a valid workflow and in fact he the bridging between the 
  printed page like printed certificates and digitally signed 
  credentials is going to be important the same.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  McMaster University there were talking about 
  the Second Use case about digital diplomas is also exploring ways 
  with you know in conjunction with VC edu and the digital 
  credentials Consortium is exploring ways of basically being able 
  to have PDFs and printed certificates and also at the same time 
  binding them to verify the credentials but that is a topic for 
  another call what we're saying here.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:   What I'm trying to say in so many words is.\
<marty_reed> will there be a new plugfest 2 credential or will  
  we use a derivative of plugfest 1 credentials?\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  As a community we've decided while it's 
  important why because the whole point of verify credentials is 
  that their verifiable meaning there's going to be digital public 
  and private key pairs involved we're going to ask the users to 
  prove control of their private keys I'm going to ask the user to 
  authenticate themselves there are more complicated protocols than 
  can you present me with this file.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Dimitri just a second I have a couple 
  questions here actually I'll let Phil ask the question and then 
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Go ahead field.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Yes go ahead.\
Phil_L_(P1): Okay can you hear me doesn't look okay Dimitri hi 
  you mentioned that the you're looking at this particular plugfest 
  a tissue or to wallet interop and I'm just wondering is issuer 
  inclusive of what we typically think of as an issuing platform 
  issuing to a digital wallet as well as another wallet as an issue 
  or issuing directly to a second different wallet.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Yes yes I great question great question fact 
  that question is at the heart of some of the debate in the 
  community and some of the differences in approaches yes we 
  suspect we and I mean a credential community and VC edu in 
  general a strongly suspect that wallets or wallet applications 
  will evolve to play multiple roles not only receiving in 
  presenting credentials and holding credentials for the you.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:   Zur butt.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  It will be able to be used as issuer platforms 
  themselves helping users.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Create self issue credentials on any sort of 
  claims helping users create endorsements.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Because I know a topic near and dear to your 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  And in addition we were also seeing that most 
  wallets are evolving a verifier aspect as well at very least when 
  getting a verifiable credential into the users wallet wallet 
  vendors want to give the courtesy feature of let's make sure that 
  we verify the credential to spare the user embarrassment down the 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  The verification status in the wallet user 
  could receive an invalid wallets and later on when they're a 
  sorry user could receive an invalid credential and later on when 
  they're presenting it to a verifier it will be rejected so to to 
  sort of front run that we also build verifier functionality into 
  wallets in addition to the issuer functionality which is what you 
  asked about so so yes and what was your second question issuer 
  platform yes we whenever we say.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:   Say issue or here in this discussion we 
  generally mean.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Form which typically means some sort of 
  learning management system so yeah we're using it in a broad 
<phil_l_(p1)> @Dimitri - very clear.  Thanks\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Thank you and Marty do you want to ask 
  question yourself.\
Marty Reed:  Sure so Dimitri or Carrier are we.\
Marty Reed:  Just like the the plugfest one credential is kind of 
  the base credential for for this exchange or is that changed or 
  matured in any way for electricity.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Great question great question I think that's 
  still in discussion I think we are using that credential as a 
  starting pay.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Starting basis yeah.\
Marty Reed:  Okay and then and then a follow on question on the 
  verifier requirement or verifier are there I know I notice 
  there's you know display components around displaying the 
  credential itself but will there be any any display requirements 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Not at this one where we're Loosely planning 
  to have the third plugfest focus on verification.\
Marty Reed:  Great thank you.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): I carry is a question too.\
<phil_l_(p1)> But if you also issued another credential data 
  model,  that would be acceptable as an added value contribution 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Is go ahead.\
Kerri Lemoie:  Yeah back to this had to do with Marty's a 
  question about what we're going to use for the credential so we 
  can use we have another one for plugfest to that we can use that 
  is similar but I also think that it might be okay if people want 
  to issue their own open badges 3.0 credentials and they don't 
  have to necessarily use that one so stay tuned for that but I 
  think that's where we could leaning.\
Kerri Lemoie:  To actually just start implementing a Majesty 
  Point O as part of Fun Fest too.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Thanks Gary yeah so the the payload is going 
  to be open badges 3.0 formatted.\
<marty_reed> very exciting Kerri!\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Going to provide an example credential that 
  you can use to issue similar to previously it can be.\
<kerri_lemoie> :)\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  A an achievement stating that the swallowed 
  supports the credential from this issuer or something like that 
  the exact payload.\
<kerri_lemoie> Open Badges 3.0 is due to be in candidate release 
  right around November but we can use the spec for this plugfest.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  And format of the credential given that it is 
  a open batch version 3 is going to be part of the discussion with 
  your interoperability Partners so one of the key tasks for for us 
  in organising this plugfest is to get a cohort of issuing 
  platforms that that speak the routing protocols and pair them up 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  All of them.\
<phil_l_(p1)> + 1 Kerri\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Actors who speak the same protocols and so 
  there's going to be some negotiation of okay what given that 
  we're supporting this protocol.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  What's the credential going to look like which 
  did methods we're supporting which key types and so on.\
<kerri_lemoie> For Plugfest 1, we used a plugfest specific 
  context file but we can use the actual OBv3 spec for this one.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Any other any other questions before I move 
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): I'm not go ahead Dimitri the queue is 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  All right go ahead.\
Phil_L_(P1): Yes are you having to ask permission.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  One second one second we're getting a lot of.\
<kerri_lemoie> Open Badges 3.0: 
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Hold on that was Phil Long I think feel 
  I think you're Mike was at a filter on and so we couldn't really 
  hear that you may want to check the mic or maybe drop the 
  question in the chat thank you.\
Phil_L_(P1): Dropping jumping jack.\
Kerri Lemoie: +1 @Evan\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Unless you've asked your robot to sit 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Yeah it's that we're getting an echo in 
  addition to the Distortion so it's almost impossible to here.\
<phil_l_(p1)> Q - Are you going going to ask the submitters to 
  describe how they are choosing to render the credential data in 
  their walltet?\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Yeah I mean while I get carried dropped 
  the the current spec which is in candidate final four open badges 
  3 and it would be lovely to see some real or more real examples 
  of ob3 designed an issue for this plugfest/\ so while will you 
  know provide one definitely there is flexibility to you can use 
  your own.\
<simone_ravaioli_(vc_edu)> important point !\
Kerri Lemoie:  I only just want to make one slight clarification 
  quick you said some money which is that it's not actually in 
  candidate release yet it's under security review right now and it 
  is scheduled to be in candidate released I think a right around 
  the time of the demo day hopefully soon we can have some folks on 
  from one Ed Tech or to talk about like me with the chairs think 
  of the groups to talk about open badges 3.0 and review where it's 
  airing out slightly different than what it what we use for flood 
  Crest one because there are some.\
Kerri Lemoie:   Changes made so that's why I put the link to this 
  fact they're so you're still going to be ahead of the game but it 
  shouldn't be changing.\
Kerri Lemoie:  Match between us.\
Kerri Lemoie:  November is very close to Candidate\ release.\
Phil_L_(P1): How to assist better.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Yes that's that's better.\
Phil_L_(P1): All right so the question is are you going to be.\
Phil_L_(P1): Is there a common approach that's just a Muslim to 
  make the energy in general.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Great question so not for this plugfest we're 
  likely that's going to be an important topic in a future plugfest 
  but you're absolutely right being able for an issuer to recommend 
  or even dictate How Could An shil is displayed is very useful and 
  there's so for example one of the one of the papers in the 
  upcoming rebooting web of trust by Madness Forney and several 
Dmitri Zagidulin:   Going to be focusing on.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Display portion the display suggestion in a 
  verifiable credential for far Downstream walnuts but that is just 
  a beginning conversation several standards body several sort of 
  implement or groups have have done initial prototypes and have 
  just started started talking about it but it has been 
  standardized yet we're not really ready to test for interop in 
  that regard so no that's that's not something that we're focusing 
  on in this.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:   This one.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Much like in the previous.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:   Although we are.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Plugfest we are expecting.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  That the credential is displayed and that 
  several of the key Fields same ones as from from previous one is 
  displayed like the issuer the if there is a badge image we expect 
  that to be available somehow and so on right so.\
<phil_l_(p1)> Not asking for interop in rendering at this stage - 
  just how participants have chosen to address this for information 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  We're not yet as advanced as describing how 
  it's going to be displayed but we do expect it to be displayed so 
  I'll play that energy question.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  All right so.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Dimitri go ahead great.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  So let's zoom in on what he means and getting 
  a verifiable credential into a wallet.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  There's several steps some of which will be 
  all of which are necessary but some some of them are standardized 
  others are not so let's talk about which ones were focusing on in 
  this plugfest so generally you want to notify the learner that 
  they're eligible for a credential that Bart is not really 
  standardized at the moment essentially we're expecting to you to 
  send an email or text message or any of the other million ways of 
  communicating over the internet.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:   Wild selection is a problem.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Now that these are knows they have to go pick 
  up their diploma or that their course completion credential 
  guiding them towards a figure out that they need a wallet to 
  start with and then getting that wallet and then if they have 
  multiple wallets which is what we're all hoping for in this 
  ecosystem how to get them to select which while they're receiving 
  it into is is one of the main challenges so we can talk about 
  that in a bit.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  But so getting a credential into a Wallet 
  requires wild selection then and this is where the protocols come 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  You have to let the issuer connect with the 
  wallet you have to either let the wallet know here's the issue 
  over there let's go talk to them or vice versa you have to let 
  the issuer know okay this is my wallets you to talk to each 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Step four is really important though it is 
  there are use cases when issuing a verifiable credential big you 
  don't need user authentication like when when you're getting 
  better credentials think the classic example of movie ticket in 
  like a paper ticket in previous pre-plague/\ movie theaters.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:   The important.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  That you paid your handed a ticket.\
<manu_sporny> /me lols at "pre-plague movie theatres"\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Naming your identity you were not 
  authenticated as part of getting that ticket right it's a bear 
  credential and so however for this plugfest because it is an 
  important use case that we want addressed and standardized in the 
  community we are going to be requiring user authentication in a 
  lot of platforms.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:   That Authentication.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Is in\ two parts.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Usually the learner already has a record in 
  the learner management system right there they're enrolled in the 
  course they're enrolled in the University they have some sort of 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  And so step a lot of issuing systems require 
  that before we hand you over anything anything you at least gotta 
  dedicate to our systems we got we have to know what your user ID 
  is and then in addition there are five credential Community is 
  offering or rather is requiring an additional step of okay yes 
  now that the learner credentials system knows that.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:   I'm Dimitri.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  One two three four five in their database.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  We're also requiring them we're also requiring 
  issuers to allow Learners to bring their own identifier to bring 
  their own did to say okay you know me as a user ID 1 2 3 4 5 but 
  please issue this credential to the following decentralised 
  identifier the ability to do that is key to the whole VC 
  ecosystem in a ROM so.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:   Although both.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Integration and data authentication it.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  We optional and issuing protocols we are going 
  to make it required.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Or this plugfest because it is such an 
  important use case in the education ecosystem.\
<phil_l_(p1)> That's a great requirement for the benefit of the 
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Dimitri man who has a question in the 
  chat man oh go ahead thank you.\
Manu Sporny:  Sure thinks some money so.\
Manu Sporny:  Speaking about it off I think one of the challenges 
  over the next six or eight months is going to be that we are like 
  actively standardizing crypto sweets and things related to that 
  and so I think we're going to have to be I know that you said 
  it's optional but one man you know some people are going to do it 
  I think one of the one of the challenges we're going to have is 
  is honing in on.\
Manu Sporny:   Okay so like.\
Manu Sporny: https://github.com/w3c-ccg/vp-request-spec/pull/18\
Manu Sporny:  In which crypto sweets because if we don't get that 
  locked in early on then it's going to be hard for people to 
  develop certain things I'll know that just this past weekend a 
  very detailed kind of outline of how did authentication as a as a 
  as it works in the VP request spec is done so there's a pull 
  request there that kind of outline said but but even if we were 
  to fall in it.\
Manu Sporny:   It's a pretty simple protocol but.\
Manu Sporny:  And if we were to.\
Manu Sporny:  Follow that my suggestion is like let's just for 
  this plugfest say it's going to be did key and then try to hone 
  in on which crypto sweet we're going to use I think we need to 
  actively discuss that as the Kennedy a sooner than later that's 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Thanks Mom that's a great point oh we 
  definitely expect the discussion to happen on and we will have it 
  both as part of these calls and on the mailing list you have to 
  the right if we're going to demonstrate did off interop people at 
  least need to know which did methods were supporting which key 
  sweets so I end and did Keys a great candidate to do it because 
  it's generally one that everybody.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:   Supports although we would want to.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  If it turns out that we have a significant 
  waci/\ did calm and Hyper Ledger Indy.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Portion of the group.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  They may or may not be able to support did key 
  write that they may have to require.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Did in hydrology Indie compatible bids for 
  that and we can address that as well.\
<manu_sporny> Yep, understood, if WACI/PeX, it'll have to be HL 
  Indy DIDs.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  But you're absolutely right we will need to 
  decide that and specify.\
<david_chadwick> did auth is not required in the OIDC4VCs 
  protocol suite\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Ah so so going back to the verification 
  workflow we've notified learner listening to be get a credential 
  we've guided them to select a wallet.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Establish the connection we perform the user 
  authentication there.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  The protocols typically supports a one or more 
  rounds of prerequisite negotiation.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  And we're not going to focus on that part as 
  part of this plugfest that that's going to be an advanced topic 
  for later and then actually transferring the information the 
  actual raw data of the credential into the wallet.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  About that in a bit.\
<manu_sporny> @DavidC if DID Auth is not required for OIDC4VCs, 
  then you will not be able to assert ownership over the credential 
  using DIDs.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  For for this plugfest were essentially going 
  to be focusing on steps three and four.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  And obviously six where we need to end up with 
  the the credential actually transferred so what are some ways of 
  getting credentials into wallets well we've got a bunch of manual 
  methods sort of low-tech in quotes that are more useful to 
  developers than end users really so.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  If we treat a credential like a file.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Which is kind of what I was not checking 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  How to get files into applications.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  We can get into all right so what are the best 
  manual methods typically scanning a QR code inviting the user to 
  scan a QR code which notice means that requires at least two 
  different devices one with the screen and then a mobile one that 
  you're just counting with and the QR code can contain a just a 
  regular web URL to a static credential hosted somewhere or in 
  some cases if the credentials small enough it can be embedded.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Weekend after use a toothpaste The Rocker 
  Dental Source Code or we can say Okay opening from your file 
  system from from your desktop or from your phone's files.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Easy's manual methods is typically how well an 
  implementer start out with the easy to implement they don't 
  address the problem of wallet selection They Don't Really support 
  user authentication as part of the protocol now some of them.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:   Handle user authentication out.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Meaning it's only after you log into your 
  canvas instance or your other learning learning management system 
  instance some user is authenticated and then you guide them to 
  the page to pick up the credential you don't require any other 
  authentication beyond that you only give them the link to pick up 
  the credential once they're authenticated and there's there's 
  pros and cons to that then we can talk about if people interested 
  but it should lie no notion of in protocol prerequisite 
  negotiation and.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:   The important part is though these methods 
  are pretty simple.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Code clicking on a link pasting something you 
  do a text box or presenting a file dialog they're not 
  standardized the moment between community so widely used not 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  In addition to the manual methods.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  There's a number of emerging issue protocols 
  specifically dealing with the interaction between issuers and 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  They also allow for some sort of Defense 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  I initially when preparing a presentation it 
  used to be that not all of the protocols allowed for multiple 
  rounds of prerequisite negotiation there is a certain number of 
  their certain amount of coevolution and the the emerging 
  Protocols are learning from each other so at the moment all three 
  of the main program families have now support/\.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:   Multiple rounds of negotiations.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  So before we get into the actual individual 
  protocols is any question on this part.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): No question Dimitri Zafar so you can 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  All right so what are we seeing in the market 
  as of today we're seeing three major political families or 
  protocol camps emerging and then a bunch of other proprietary to 
  a particular issuer or two particular ecosystem so 
  non-standardized ones so the ones will be looking at the ones 
  we're asking you as issuer providers or wallet providers.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Of these three so.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  These branches community group of which this 
  VC Andrews is a task force has its own specification called VC 
  API encourage everybody to look through it.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  And although VC API does not include require.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Happy or credential Handler API the two are 
  often used in conjunction just because while these Capi mostly 
  focuses on server to server interaction.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Pancham the API also allows support to get 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  From just the browser right so like if a user 
  is logging into a public terminal at their Library they don't 
  have a secondary mobile device or Hardware walls or anything like 
  that they're still able to receive credentials.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Turns out that potential handle API help is 
  very useful in the problem of wallet selection on the mobile side 
  but anyway so the first protocol is VC API which.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Air fire and points some wallet and points and 
  most importantly for this block vest issuer endpoints both a 
  low-level internal and point that we expect is going to be used 
  by the issuer app itself but also much more importantly the 
  external facing exchange and point that allows a particular 
  wallet to talk to an issue and receive the credential right so.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:   This is an HTTP based API.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Incubated here in this community so definitely 
  one should take a look at the next one you should take a look at 
  and familiarize yourself is open ad foundations the same 
  standards body behind open as you connect a number of related 
Dmitri Zagidulin:   Has been.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  On its back that is literally called opening 
  D4 verifiable credential issuance so it uses the general concepts 
  and reuse a some of the syntax although it adds a lot of new 
  syntax obviously from the opening D connect Authentication 
  Protocol and it uses some of the concepts for receiving.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:   I couldn't just.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  In a certain way the authentication process is 
  a narrow.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Let's generalized version of receiving a 
  credential it's just that the credential you're asking for is the 
  user's username but still a lot of the a lot of pieces are the 
  same and then lastly Essentials identity Foundation.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Wacky did Cam interrupt profile and waci\ I 
  believe stands for wallets while it credential issuance something 
  like that.\
Kaliya Young:  Wallet and credential wallet and credential 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Juan Crenshaw interaction thank you so much 
  Kelly am.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  It is combination of several protocols and 
  data models that again allows Wallace to request credentials from 
  issuers then there's a number of.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Non-standardized or are one-off protocols 
Dmitri Zagidulin:  We leave as user homework but your task for 
  plucked Us number number two is out of those 3 VC API open IG for 
  issuing verifiable credentials or waci DIDcomm/\.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Pick one at least one of those protocols and 
  then within that protocol family we're going to ask you that if 
  you're an issue provider good at demonstrating around with at 
  least two other wallets that are not developed by U and similarly 
  if your wallet provider we're gonna ask you to receive 
  credentials from at least two other issuers.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  At the moment we are we would like defecation 
  to be required now.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  If that's not possible and you still want to 
  participate then speak up on the mailing list or contact the jff 
  team which talked about it but assume that identification is 
  required I think that's the sound of a question.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): There's a question from David David 
  please go ahead thank you.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Honor yet the latter IE turns out that all 
  three of the protocol families essentially provide a mechanism 
  for demonstrating proof possession of the DID/\ so yeah so.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:   So whichever.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Whichever probably you go you end up going 
  with use that protocols method of did of integration.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Whoa yeah that's good to know and I'm hoping 
  the ccg leadership.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  That's really bizarre.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Okay we can we can try to look back 
  into that David also the browser issue I would like to ask Evan 
  to ask the question.\
Evan_Lally_(Digital_Bazaar): Thanks for joining thanks Dimitri 
  just wanted to bring up that we at digital bizarre are putting 
  some tooling together to help explain chappie about IO and also 
  help make it easier for the community to integrate and meet the 
  goals of plugfest to using chappie protocol so Dimitri has a link 
  there chappie down IO will be adding to that tool over the next 
  few weeks and if there are any questions feel free to post them 
  in the GitHub repo or just email either myself or manu about that 
  but are.\
Evan_Lally_(Digital_Bazaar): List to provide tools for this 
  community to use to make it easy for you to.\
Evan_Lally_(Digital_Bazaar): Experiment with CHAPI/\.\
Kerri Lemoie: +1 @Evan!\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Thank you so much having.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Right yep so I've got to.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Dimitri just a time check we're 
  entering starts and last five minutes of the hour.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Two sides left just want a couple of points I 
  want to touch on and then we'll take some more questions all 
  right so which one should you pick for the plugfest partly 
  depends on what what general area you're focusing on whether 
  you're a sort of middleware provider for focusing on 
  machine-to-machine server to server interaction whether you need 
  to be supporting mobile apps whether you have the requirement 
  which is important accessibility requirement of being sport web 
Dmitri Zagidulin:   The thing I want.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Point out is that although obviously it's it's 
  an important engineering investment in a way the protocols all do 
  essentially the same things so most of the challenges of existing 
  credential issuers is going to be starting to learn some of 
  verifiable credential lingo starting to be familiarized with the 
  protocols coding up the different steps while selection that are 
  notification do negotiation all that stuff.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:   But once you.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  At the effort of supporting another one of the 
  protocols in that main family of three becomes easier so have you 
  heard of developments we're certainly as the organizers are not 
  going to recommend just one protocol so have you teams look 
  through the specs go through the very detailed and very helpful 
  ccg digital wallet protocol analysis that.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:   Analyze some of the features.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  And in general.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Wall provider start looking and we're going to 
  provide a list as well start thinking about which issues you're 
  gonna demonstrate interoperability with.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  You already have strategic Partners they 
  probably already have invested in a protocol and so you're 
  probably going to support whatever they do and vice versa.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  What if similarities there's actually a lot of 
  similarities in all of the protocols all three of them support 
  kicking off the transfer credential either initiated by the user 
  by the wallet or initiated by the issuer.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Education is generally out-of-band while its 
  selection is one of the main challenges in picking a protocol so 
  it is a one of the reasons to look at especially if you're 
  supporting mobile or browser workflows one of the reasons of 
  looking at chat the I/O as I mentioned obviously the all of the 
  protocols have some sort of way some query data model.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:   The wallet can describe.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Essential it wants to receive.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  All three of them support did a syndication 
  and all three of them obviously get the credential added wallet 
  what are the differences.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  As the three Protocols are evolving and 
  co-evolved incur there's becoming less and less differences 
  between them so a lot of it has to do with if you already part of 
  an ecosystem or whatever your strategic partners are there still 
  some difference between whether the protocol can support.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Hi the cross-device flow like before we 
  mentioned scanning credential on the screen which requires two 
  devices or.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Supporting the I only have mobile device I 
  want to be able to receive the the credential right on that 
  device so go from notification go from an email client or a 
  browser into the wallet.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  They're not the protocol support web browsers 
  or server to server or peer-to-peer only.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  So we are almost at the top of the hour 
  there's room for a couple of quick questions and obviously if you 
  have more questions will follow up on the mailing list so.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): I think there is room for man whose 
  last question go ahead Manu.\
Manu Sporny:  Just a quick note there are more differences than 
  this there has been an enormous amount of discussion kind of 
  behind the scenes in various customer engagements and we're 
  trying to build bring some of that discussion out into the light 
  into the public so it can be discussed more openly we are 
  struggling with the timeline for that but hope to do that 
  sometime in the next couple of weeks.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): And Kelly also is on the Queue please 
  please can you go.\
Kaliya Young:  Yeah I think this is really excellent work I 
  co-chair the different or operability group that it has quite 
  frankly has somewhat struggled to figure out what we do and what 
  we do next but I think this is a really excellent interop effort 
  and I was actually going to ask if someone would be willing to 
  come and share this work and invite people interested in interop 
  who are hanging out in the interoperability.\
Kaliya Young:   We're waiting for that.\
<sharon_leu> Re-posting links, FAQs, and registration link: 
Kaliya Young:  The next you know if they're interested for the 
  next few months I think it's excellent work.\
Dmitri Zagidulin:  Thanks Kylie and I highly recommend everyone 
  to check out the diff interoperability group and get involved.\
<kerri_lemoie> Will drop you a line @Kaliya\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Yeah lovely thank Kaliya/\ for sure 
  this is perfect timing and you know we this is an opportunity to 
  create interop across the different working groups to so we'll 
  follow up exactly.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): So thank you very much Dimitri and 
  Sharon for sharing more about the plug Fest we are top of the 
  hour but for sure probably not address all the questions so 
  anything outstanding we recommend you can drop in the document 
  that would link earlier or just share it in the mailing list that 
  is the main communication tool that we have and the one that we 
  are going to Leverage.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): We'll make sure to.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Is again in a follow-up email 
  particularly the new web page with all the info on the plugfest 
  number two and as always we'll share an agenda for this weekly 
  calls toward the end of the week we have a few lined up for the 
  next few weeks certainly plugfest is top of mind for everyone and 
  thanks thanks to all of you for participating and supporting this 
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU):  I think it takes.\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): To get it over the line so lovely to 
  see the community coming together for this interrupt effort.\
<sharon_leu> Thanks everyone!\
<kerri_lemoie> Thank you!\
<tayken_(lef)> Thanks all, exciting work and progress!\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Okay so thanks a lot everyone I'm going 
  to stop the recording and we'll see you next week.\
<enrico> Bye\
Simone_Ravaioli_(VC_EDU): Recording has stopped.\
<phil_l_(p1)> Thanks!\

Received on Tuesday, 27 September 2022 21:51:36 UTC