[MINUTES] W3C CCG {\rtf1\ansi\ansicpg1252\cocoartf2639 Call - 2022-06-27

Thanks to Our Robot Overlords and Our Robot Overlords for scribing this week!

The transcript for the call is now available here:


Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes.
Audio of the meeting is available at the following location:


education\ Transcript for 2022-06-27

  1. IP Note\
  2. Call Notes\
  3. Introductions & Reintroductions\
  4. Announcements & Reminders\
  5. Main Topic - Community Showcase: Diwala\
  Our Robot Overlords and Our Robot Overlords
  Simone Ravaoli, JeffO HumanOS, Philipp, Akshar Patel, Chandi 
  Cumaranatunge, Stuart Freeman, Kerri Lemoie, Evan Lally (Digital 
  Bazaar), John Kuo, Andy Griebel, Evin, Taylor, Kayode Ezike, 
  Colin, Learning Economy, Mahesh Balan - pocketcred.com, Deb 
  Everhart, Isaiah (CoinFund), Marty Reed, David Ward, Mike Peck, 
  Julien Fraichot, Phil L (P1), Victor, Tim Bouma, Sandro 
  Cacciamani, Phil Barker, Phil Long, Paul Grehan, Tim Dutta - 
  Entrustient, Seth, Jonny, Deepak Kulkarni, Kaliya Young, Matthieu 
  Bosquet, Dmitri Zagidulin, Shrey Jain, Jacob, Scott Meyer, 
  Timothy Summers

<simone_ravaioli> gm everyone  :wave:\
<kerri_lemoie> Hello all. Thanks for joining us.\
<evin> gm gm\
<colin,_learning_economy> gm gm 
Our Robot Overlords are scribing.

Topic: IP Note\

Kerri Lemoie: CLA: 

Topic: Call Notes\

Topic: Introductions & Reintroductions\

Chandi_Cumaranatunge: I am Charlie come on I work at Arizona 
  State University and we had a meeting with Simoni last week 
  pretty excited to join in contribute if you can.\
<colin,_learning_economy> queue\
<kerri_lemoie> Sounds great Philipp! Would love to hear more - 
Colin,_Learning_Economy: I'd like to hop in and just reintroduce 
  say hi to everybody this is Colorado's with learning economy 
  foundation and just put in a plug for anyone that will be in 
  Barcelona next week for each Barcelona will do today's 
  conversation I think is a great sample of some of the panel 
  discussion and engagements that we're hoping to have with with 
  anyone present so excited to hear the dialogue today and for 
  anyone will be in Barcelona.\
Colin,_Learning_Economy:  July 6 28 we will be there as well.\
Colin,_Learning_Economy: I'm with look forward to connecting with 
Kerri Lemoie: +1 @Colin\

Topic: Announcements & Reminders\

<colin,_learning_economy> you can find me on telegram if you want 
  to connect re: EthBarcelona @mistereynolds\
<philipp> @Kerri Lemoie: Thank you - i'll be emailing you shortly 
  with a short summary of our project\

Topic: Main Topic - Community Showcase: Diwala\

Kerri Lemoie: +1 Philipp!\
<kerri_lemoie> Paper that has prompted this agenda & 
Jonny: I can jump in here Simona that's okay yeah it smells yes I 
  understand it sorry I was a little late so I don't know what all 
  the the setup was but soulbound tokens as their kind of conceived 
  of right now are largelyNFT\based I guess there is a little bit 
  of Need for clarity around people think.\
Jonny:  if people think that's old.\
Jonny: Tokens are necessarily in Ft based but they're intended to 
  be kind of have a different way of being transferred so they're 
  not transferable just all over the place like a regular nft but 
  they are a token that is transferable to other accounts based on 
  some other logic and its intended to not be transferable to 
  another human right so a human might have multiple ethereum 
  addresses or.\
Jonny:  or some other chain addresses and you only want.\
Jonny: That soulbound token to be transferred to other accounts 
  or addresses that are mutually controlled by some actor some 
  human and the idea here is that these NFTs/\ can contain some 
  amount of data that is about an individual you've seen there's 
  you know good ideas or at least non-offensive ideas I think for 
  what type of data might be in a soulbound token stuff like 
  membership to adapt to or something like.\
Jonny:  like that.\
Jonny: And then there's other bad ideas which I think we could 
  talk about which are the idea that you might put a medical record 
  or citizenship or something that has pii in it into this in ft 
  and the whole purpose of this there's like lots of other kind of 
  ideas that surround this but one of the big Ideas is that now you 
  can bring a piece of your identity and your reputation to some on 
  chain logic smart contracts for instance to do certain things.\
Jonny:  right and gives us some level of.\
Jonny: I was a.\
Jonny: That's how I understand the state of soulbound tokens 
  right now.\
Evin: I'm happy to hop in and and discuss thank you so much so 
  and thank you also for creating a forum for us to continue this 
  this discussion I think it's been so fruitful this far so to 
  recap for those of us who might not have joined us in our most 
  recent conversation we actually had a wonderful opportunity to 
  discuss with Pooja the co-author of this paper her intention and 
  objectives in in pursuing this conjecture so she really 
  articulated her interest in multi-party computation.\
Evin: Data that is created by multiple parties in collaboration 
  so it was really wonderful to learn that she actually shares some 
  of the objectives and interests of those on on this call and 
  those who have been working their identity space for a while and 
  that actually is some of the objective she was looking to achieve 
  can can be successfully achieved using verifiable credentials so 
  we agreed that there actually might be some better implementation 
  details than those proposed in this initial paper.\
Evin:  / that might be more uniquely well-suited to the 
  objectives that.\
Evin: Into to pursue so it was really wonderful to learn that you 
  know not only do we have a shared of a shared set of goals but we 
  also agree that the implementation details discussed might not 
  actually be the best when we think about the you know optimal 
  self custody experience so I think you know there's a lot of 
  ample ground to be explored together I also think there's an 
  opportunity for us to have a broader convert more inclusive 
  conversation that.\
Evin:  seems the web three.\
<mahesh_balan_-_pocketcred.com> +q\
Evin: A lot of folks look at soulbound tokens as the only way for 
  key holders in the ethereum ecosystem let's say to have 
  non-transferable traits that can interact with on chain 
  activities but I think that's just an issue of Education because 
  for most people they're not aware of the other Primitives that 
  are available that this group you know leads and is focused on 
  the education space for implementing so the our common ground is 
  vast I think you know.\
Evin:  the difference is in our opinion are much smaller.\
Evin: Originally thought and so what we can welcome in this 
  moment is a practical discussion of implementation how might we 
  explore these ideas in a manner that preserves the well-being and 
  optimizes for you know minimum rather minimizes harm for 
  end-users helping them to address real challenges that they're 
  facing today with tools that are going to make sense for them in 
  the short term so you know while sold on tokens do not yet.\
Evin: Community College last Speck or are you know what that kind 
  of guidance or interoperability across chains in the interim we 
  might be able to explore some more practical implementations 
  using the the specs that we already have but take into account 
  these new ideas that that you know the people want to have 
  non-transferable traits associated with their public addresses in 
  aetherium that can be composable so that was a really fruitful 
  discussion one that I'm really really glad that we had because 
  now we can.\
Evin:  see that you know at the end of the day we are all really 
  you know human.\
Evin: Another trying to solve problems for human beings with 
  these human coordination tools.\
Kerri Lemoie: +1 Evin - thank you\
<evin> Would love to welcome more in this group into the 
  web3-native convos as well\
Mahesh_Balan_-_pocketcred.com: Sure my name is Mahesh Balan I 
  have a I'm the founder of pocket read we've been working in the 
  in the w3c verifiable credentials pays for the last few years 
  thank you for this opportunity as I look at as beep he's the one 
  thing that I think the w3c community right here and the extended 
Mahesh_Balan_-_pocketcred.com: Has done really well is to give 
  control back to the to the holder right and to me I can see there 
  are some use cases wherein people want to put something public 
  like for example in a LinkedIn profile High I put the fact that I 
  study today see you but the main question I would have is a 
  protocol involving sbts should first.\
Mahesh_Balan_-_pocketcred.com:  take the permission.\
<phil_t3> @Evin is you have a suggestion as to where that convo 
  is periodically convening please share it!\
<evin> q\
Mahesh_Balan_-_pocketcred.com: The person who is actually 
  receiving a credential because that would be my main concern that 
  somebody had does not have a right to put anything about me in a 
  public Ledger without my explicit permission so I see a workflow 
  where in you know it's the classic you know issue ever holder 
  interaction that is a presentation done I accept.\
Mahesh_Balan_-_pocketcred.com:  out and then.\
Mahesh_Balan_-_pocketcred.com: This carried on and say posted as 
  an SVT and as matter of fact the nfte could ideally point to a 
  verifiable credential so that that document has some value as 
  opposed to just some Json that is unsigned right so so there may 
  be a use case right there but I would love to see the thoughts of 
  this group on how that problem needs to be addressed thank you.\
Phil Long: +1 To Mahesh's concern\
Evin: I do and I absolutely would welcome you know notes from 
  from others in this group as well I think that you touched on the 
  crucial element here which is consent so to the extent that we 
  can better enable individuals to decide the level of publicity 
  and context of publicity of their personally identifiable 
  information whether that is you know in this context and academic 
  achievement I think that makes a ton of sense I think that the 
Evin: Clarity of a.\
<phil_t3> This issue of consent is one of the concerns that has 
  been at the forefront of the VC approach so that one isn't 
  'awarded' a credential, anchored in public, that is not wanted to 
  be the recipient or target.\
<phil_t3> 'not wanted by'...\
<kerri_lemoie> Absolutely, @Evin.\
<phil_t3> One such recommendation is the more recent ethical 
  design principles for VCs by Digital Promise\
<evin> ^^ love this\
<kayode_ezike> Domains of Identity by Kaliya\
<kerri_lemoie> 7 laws of identity: 
Phil Long: 
Kerri Lemoie: +1 @Phil T3\
<evin> and invite a shared dedication to minimizing harm to 
<kerri_lemoie> Would love to leave this call with some direct 
  actions like those being discussed.\
<colin,_learning_economy> I wonder what role "trusted issuers" 
  play in the guardrails and intentions of issuing credentials...\
<kerri_lemoie> Evin & Vitalik on Bankless podcast about SBTs: 
<phil_t3> There is also a reference to learners\'92 welfare, 
  rights, and agency in the  DCC whitepaper 
<mahesh_balan_-_pocketcred.com> While the body of work on VC on 
  the one hand seems to have been overlooked, what do you all think 
  of Jack Dorsey's TBD effort which seems to fully embrace VC's - 
<evin> ^they're friends and allies!\
<kerri_lemoie> @Evin - would you mind explaining a little bit 
  about TBD for folks here?\
<kaliya_identitywoman> It would be great if Shrey could share :)\
<kerri_lemoie> Would be interested in digging into pluralism in 
  comparison to SSI (if there is a real comparison).\
<phil_t3> This sounds like an architectural design difference 
  that identifies where VCs are of primary importance relative to 
  the use cases for which Web3 & blockchains were designed.  That 
  begs the question - is forcing a merger the right strategy? Is 
  there some other approach?\
<john_kuo> + Phil\
<> smart contract interaction (e.g. EIP-1812 style) that's the 
  crucial technical unblocker\
Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
Jonny: Many of the ideas in that D sock paper are trying to get 
<mahesh_balan_-_pocketcred.com> How about chainlink verifying the 
  VC and simply disclosing "Valid", can that work Jonny?\
Kerri Lemoie:  Yeah that makes sense thanks explanation Johnny.\
Mahesh_Balan_-_pocketcred.com: Yeah thank you Johnny for that 
  explanation I was wondering would chain-link be able to do 
  something like that in terms of just doing a verification and 
  saying yes or no so that you don't I mean that can just kind of 
  tries to minimize the amount of information that is disclosed but 
  also allows the smart contract to say yes Mahesh has a valid 
  thing so now let's move on to the next he can.\
Mahesh_Balan_-_pocketcred.com: Give you the money or what.\
Jonny: Right yeah I do think that that is the at least in my mind 
  right now is the is the most appealing way to maybe solve this 
  problem so you know.\
Jonny: Right so thank you can publish a very minimized version of 
  what it's almost a zkp right like you could even take it a little 
  bit further and chain link you can prove something to chain link 
  chain link is the trusted writer of some data to the chain about 
  something and so they publish a some data on chain for that smart 
  contract to read and in some way that only that contract knows 
  how to read it I'm I mean it's a little.\
Jonny:  a bit gets a little bit in the weeds and I.\
Jonny: I don't want to say anything that's you know technically 
  incorrect here but I do think that that is at least right now the 
  approach that I'm thinking about the most I don't know if it 
  needs to be chain-link the one of the things that I'm really 
  interested in is whether or not you can prove this without having 
  to go through chain link so the user can be their own Oracle 
  about this which would be interesting but there you know it might 
  give you a level of abstraction you know kind of privacy heard 
  privacy if you're going through.\
Jonny:  chain link and chain links writing about a whole set of 
  identities as.\
Jonny: And putting that data on chain rather than the thing that 
  is being proved on chain coming directly signed from your wallets 
  public key and that might actually be beneficial if you go 
  through a service like that for some extra layer of you know a 
  buffer in terms of coral ability so yeah I think there's a lot of 
  little nuances and things here that I think we're just now 
  beginning to dig into.\
Phil Long:  Sorry about that I've got a layer upon layer of your 
  of audio issues yeah I would it sounds very much like to 
  communities that have been architecting for different 
  optimizations with the web three Community coming out of the 
  original blockchain World and and its intention to be as 
  transparent and.\
Phil Long:  Communicative as possible while at the same time 
  dealing with peer-to-peer transfer of assets and things in ways 
  that anonymized at least or pseudo anonymize the the transactions 
  whereas the blockchain world excuse me of the verifiable 
  credential world has been very much focused on enabling agency 
  upon among the individual holders of credentials and raising 
Phil Long:   Ability to express.\
Kaliya Young: Comment: the trouble is they are not "architecting" 
  they are musing in pooly researched papers\
Phil Long:  Their desires about privacy and such in the same way 
  and at the same plane if you will as issuers and relying parties 
  and so we have these two different philosophical approaches that 
  are coming together and I'm wondering whether or not the goal 
  isn't necessarily to merge these things but to find out where 
  they do they intersect in a meaningful way and or is there a way 
  to route.\
Phil Long:   The kinds of.\
Phil Long:  That are appropriate for each perhaps along the line 
  of the previous speaker so that we are up we're using the 
  architecture that is optimally designed for the intended privacy 
  protections that's my comment.\
<kerri_lemoie> re chainlink reference: 
Colin,_Learning_Economy: Hey I just wanted to kind of echo what 
  Phil said and and sort of circle back to a comment that Evan made 
  about sharing research and sharing just and in this mindset of 
  curiosity around these two communities sort of intersecting in 
  one way or another I think there's a lot of sentiment on both 
  sides about what we are what we're trying to do for individuals 
  in terms of credentials.\
Colin,_Learning_Economy: And achievements and and.\
Colin,_Learning_Economy: All the different parts and I'm I really 
  appreciate people willing to engage in the conversation you know 
  as somebody who is curious about things that's a mantra I've 
  always sort of maintained as an educator as someone who's still 
  learning you know every single day about all the work of behind 
  the BCD you and Beyond but as you know to stay more Curious than 
  certain and I think as these emerging ideas are shared and are 
  starting to be explored that that that attitude is.\
Colin,_Learning_Economy:  is is helpful in.\
<mike_peck> Love it.  Stay more curious than certain.\
Colin,_Learning_Economy: Overlap and intersections and also 
  respecting some of the differences and the value that they might 
  add because at the end of the day I think we at least my my view 
  on some of this and I think many is here share the similar view 
  is that we're trying to empower and enable individuals to have a 
  level of ownership around their identity around their 
  achievements around their assertions that is in many ways 
  fundamentally different than the world that I grew up in and I'm 
  imagining the world that many of you grew up in as well.\
Colin,_Learning_Economy:  so I just wanted to jump in and say 
  that I appreciate the conversation.\
<phil_t3> My comments are in no way meant to suggest we should 
  work together to explore opportunities for collaboration and 
  perhaps there are ways to bridge the architectures.  It has a 
  superificial analogy to parachains bridging different blockchain 
Kerri Lemoie: +1 To constant curiosity & encouraging learning\
Colin,_Learning_Economy: I really want to continue to read and 
  learn and find some of those intersections and and would be 
  definitely interested in you know architecting or contributing to 
  the conversations around the architecture and the systems for 
  both because I think they are they do have unique use cases for 
  both and the VC world I've spent more time in the VC world and 
  again I'm a I think a little bit of a guppy amongst the.\
Colin,_Learning_Economy:  the community here but you know that.\
<evin> @Phil - Disco's working with teams in ETH, BTC, DOT, web2 
  & more - totally agree!\
Colin,_Learning_Economy: There's some Frameworks and some some 
  content behind that that I find uniquely position for Education 
  whereas like sbts seem like they have potential application in in 
  another space not saying that those are distinct from each other 
  but just a couple observations and curious what others think 
  about that as well.\
<phil_t3> oops "we should work together" for got the dbl negative 
Phil Long: +1 @Evin\
John Kuo:  Hey sweetie I was just you know listening very 
  carefully to everything here and there's been this emphasis on 
  you know preservation of pii and and privacy and control but you 
  know one thing that VCS struggle with is to take types of 
  credentials that you actually want to kind of broadcast publicly 
  and you're not really that interested in maintaining privacy the 
  intent of it is to show it off so a skill or a badge or things 
  like that.\
John Kuo:  You know you want to be able to make that public but 
  there are some difficulties you know in doing that with respect 
  to the very nature of what PCS are supposed to control so perhaps 
  you know some collaboration with something like you know 
  something on chain would be beneficial to making those types of 
  BC's more accessible publicly.\
Evin: I'm John totally want to Echo your comment there that 
  composability integrating both on and off chain proofs is a 
  really exciting opportunity where we've addressed the 
  discoverability of a user but those traits or those 
  qualifications are not necessarily going to be appropriate so for 
  example in the Dow ecosystem there are a lot of communities that 
  represent marginalized communities so it's actually not going to 
  be appropriate for members of an lgbtqia+ organization in a state 
  where that.\
<john_kuo> +++@Evin\
<kaliya_identitywoman> <3 Evin - preach!\
Evin: Fully recognized and supported to publicize their 
  participation in that Community similarly for a variety of Dow 
  and decentralized communities that are primarily made of women 
  and non-binary people it actually ends up being a risk marking 
  their wallets in that way with their gender identity and so for 
  marginalized communities that are active in the web three space 
  that want to be able to take advantage of Access Control across 
  platforms and a crew there non-financial reputation in a way 
  that's self Sovereign or rather sorry self custody I think that 
Evin:  all credentials offer all the benefits of discoverability 
  without any of the negative.\
Evin: Is that my.\
<simone_ravaioli> some curated reflections on SBTs / VCs 
  (temporary and incomplete!)  
Kerri Lemoie: +1 @Evin - also considering scotus ruling\
Evin: I'm being actually very tangible and harmful we also talked 
  about this in the context of of course Women's Health this data 
  is very timely so there's a lot of experimentation going on in 
  this this sort of Realm where the Privacy preservation and 
  consent is actually a mode and not diminishing the usability of 
  these tools so totally hear you there and I think this really 
  gets into the specific implementation details that we're talking 
  about earlier so rather than thinking about you are hypotheticals 
  like what are the.\
Evin:  the actual credentials for which there is demand.\
<mahesh_balan_-_pocketcred.com> +evin, you bring up very current 
  and real issues in this day and age. QUite frankly you opened my 
  eyes to this issue of marginalized communities whose freedoms 
  seems to be in a waning phase now.\
Evin: And very man for leveraging and so in our research at disco 
  we've seen explicitly the Dow Community is that do not want to 
  have unfettered secondary markets or necessarily you know 
  publicity around their membership wanting to take advantage of 
  these getting.\
<phil_t3> @ Erin great comments!  The ability to control the 
  attributes one wishes is critical to preserve as we seek points 
  of synergy\
<kerri_lemoie> Thank you all for an excellent discussion!\
<kaliya_identitywoman> Thank you!\
<scott_meyer> great one Simone and team!\
<philipp> Thank you!\
<phil_t3> @John Kuo - that was a sharp observation\
<mike_peck> Thanks everyone for the conversation, and Simone for 
<taylor> thx! It\'92s in our nature as humans to coordinate and 
  cross-pollinate. +1 to building bridges and assuming the better 
  angels of our nature.\
Kerri Lemoie:  Thank you I'll make you some money for hosting 
  this call great work.\

Received on Tuesday, 27 September 2022 21:59:41 UTC