W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-credentials@w3.org > January 2022

Re: Ideals meet Implementations - Blockchains, NFTs, Decentralization, Oh My!

From: Adrian Gropper <agropper@healthurl.com>
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 17:40:06 -0500
Message-ID: <CANYRo8j40xiTBQLigppD8vfj=tMCdQ13Ha_4jFYRyhErkzsx7A@mail.gmail.com>
To: Mike Prorock <mprorock@mesur.io>
Cc: Bob Wyman <bob@wyman.us>, W3C Credentials CG <public-credentials@w3.org>
I'm not sure what you mean by "direct links" but perhaps the best way I can
explain the human rights angle is to refer to Article 16
https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights that
states:
>
> Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race, nationality
> or religion, have the right to marry...


Marriage, in our context, is a legally and socially recognized right to
choose a delegate (spouse), share only some of our policies with
that delegate, and have that delegate recognized as acting on our behalf.

- Adrian

On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 5:06 PM Mike Prorock <mprorock@mesur.io> wrote:

> Adrian,
> In that linked post you state:
>
>> With respect to the UDHRs, I would point to
>> 12 (privacy and confidentiality), 13 (anonymity), 14 (limit the reach of
>> DHS and other state actors), 17 (the right to associate with and delegate
>> to others), 18 (associate with and delegate to communities one chooses),
>> 20
>> (association, again), 21 (secret elections), 22 (anonymity), 23 (trade
>> unions as delegates), 24 (burden of managing decisions in an asymmetric
>> power relationship with the state or with dominant private platforms), 29
>> (duties to and scope of the community).
>
>
> I think Bob may have been asking for some direct links, as I am explicitly
> asking for now.  Basically [citation needed]
>
> Mike Prorock
> CTO, Founder
> https://mesur.io/
>
>
>
> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 4:16 PM Adrian Gropper <agropper@healthurl.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Yes, Bob. Here are some references to UDHR
>> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-credentials/2022Jan/0017.html
>>
>> Adrian
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 3:56 PM Bob Wyman <bob@wyman.us> wrote:
>>
>>> Adrian,
>>> You wrote: "Burdening the user to both store and control their
>>> credential using a "holder" principle is a violation of a person's *right
>>> to delegate*."
>>>
>>> Could you please explain what you mean by the "right to delegate?" Is
>>> this "right" either enumerated within or implied by some existing
>>> constitution or international document such as the Universal Declaration of
>>> Human Rights? While I certainly agree that there are many things that users
>>> should be able to delegate, I'm not sure how one would argue for an
>>> entitlement to delegate which is so fundamental that one would call it a
>>> "right."
>>>
>>> bob wyman
>>>
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 2:29 PM Adrian Gropper <agropper@healthurl.com>
>>> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Anil,
>>>>
>>>> Here's the beginning and the conclusion that relates to W3C SSI work:
>>>>
>>>> If we do want to change our relationship to technology, I think we’d
>>>> have to do it intentionally. My basic thoughts are roughly:
>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>    1. *We should accept the premise that people will not run their
>>>>>    own servers by designing systems that can distribute trust without having
>>>>>    to distribute infrastructure.* This means architecture that
>>>>>    anticipates and accepts the inevitable outcome of relatively centralized
>>>>>    client/server relationships, but uses cryptography (rather than
>>>>>    infrastructure) to distribute trust. One of the surprising things to me
>>>>>    about web3, despite being built on “crypto,” is how little cryptography
>>>>>    seems to be involved!
>>>>>
>>>>> This is also the point I've been trying to make from a human rights
>>>> perspective: *Burdening the user to both store and control their
>>>> credential using a "holder" principle is a violation of a person's right to
>>>> delegate*.
>>>>
>>>> It could also be counter-productive to adoption of our work, including
>>>> "crypto", on standardized digital credentials. One of the places I
>>>> experience this personally is when the vast majority of government agencies
>>>> insist on me providing them with "Release Forms" and do not accept the
>>>> documents themselves. I agree that most private verifiers do accept the
>>>> documents but even they are likely to balk at redacted "presentations".
>>>>
>>>> - Adrian
>>>>
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 1:34 PM Philipp Schmidt <phi.schmidt@gmail.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Moxie’s piece is excellent. I also found the comparison to web 1.0 and
>>>>> 2.0 in Tim O’Reilly’s article useful:
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> https://www.oreilly.com/radar/why-its-too-early-to-get-excited-about-web3/
>>>>>
>>>>> I would like to read more thoughtful and well argued pro-web3
>>>>> articles, appreciate links from this community!
>>>>>
>>>>> P
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 1:28 PM Phillip Long <pdlong2@asu.edu> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Anil: Moxie is the founder of Whisper Systems, acquired back in
>>>>>> Twitter in 2011. Later he developed Signal (the secure messaging app), etc.
>>>>>> A similar critique of web3 was published recently by Jeff Galloway (a
>>>>>> polarizing voice for many to be sure) at
>>>>>> https://www.profgalloway.com/web3/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>
>>>>>> *e: *pdlong2@asu.edu
>>>>>> Adaptive Learning Library Consultant
>>>>>> *org:* EdPlus/ASU
>>>>>> https://edplus.asu.edu/what-we-do/orchard-adaptive-learning-experience
>>>>>> *SNS:* https://www.linkedin.com/in/longpd
>>>>>> <https://edplus.asu.edu/what-we-do/orchard-adaptive-learning-experience>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Jan 18, 2022, at 12:06 PM, John, Anil <anil.john@hq.dhs.gov>
>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Given the continuous discussions around
>>>>>> centralization/de-centralization in our community, I found this essay by
>>>>>> Moxie Marlinspike …
>>>>>>
>>>>>> My first impressions of web3
>>>>>> https://moxie..org/2022/01/07/web3-first-impressions.html
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://urldefense.us/v3/__https:/moxie.org/2022/01/07/web3-first-impressions.html__;!!BClRuOV5cvtbuNI!TWHO5okUoNLRfejX8R4fouQNtXHpePRJgCEMSTTdyJyd1YeYLaovlTtxC0oRLOgLPpNr$__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!IrG5_q6AE6qea1FemPCOy_y8YEw9na8etw2kGHXAB8UhTKiwV9Y0BRQlLhFxxsU$>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> … to have aspects that have relevance to the DID/VC work.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> If you don’t know who Moxie Marlinspike is, recommend doing a bit of
>>>>>> due diligence to find out.
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anil
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Anil John
>>>>>> Technical Director, Silicon Valley Innovation Program
>>>>>> Science and Technology Directorate
>>>>>> US Department of Homeland Security
>>>>>> Washington, DC, USA
>>>>>>
>>>>>> Email Response Time – 24 Hours
>>>>>>
>>>>>> <image002.jpg>
>>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.dhs.gov/science-and-technology__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!IrG5_q6AE6qea1FemPCOy_y8YEw9na8etw2kGHXAB8UhTKiwV9Y0BRQlcTnIC1M$>
>>>>>> <image004.jpg>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
Received on Tuesday, 18 January 2022 22:40:31 UTC

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