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Re: Ideals meet Implementations - Blockchains, NFTs, Decentralization, Oh My!

From: Mike Prorock <mprorock@mesur.io>
Date: Tue, 18 Jan 2022 17:43:00 -0500
Message-ID: <CAGJKSNRaNsOJSKY=yaPkj21L31ym3=6=r7908SQB9Ri_g25Opg@mail.gmail.com>
To: Adrian Gropper <agropper@healthurl.com>
Cc: Bob Wyman <bob@wyman.us>, W3C Credentials CG <public-credentials@w3.org>
Honestly I don't see the connection between Article 16 and delegation.

Mike Prorock
mesur.io

On Tue, Jan 18, 2022, 17:40 Adrian Gropper <agropper@healthurl.com> wrote:

> I'm not sure what you mean by "direct links" but perhaps the best way I
> can explain the human rights angle is to refer to Article 16
> https://www.un.org/en/about-us/universal-declaration-of-human-rights that
> states:
>>
>> Men and women of full age, without any limitation due to race,
>> nationality or religion, have the right to marry...
>
>
> Marriage, in our context, is a legally and socially recognized right to
> choose a delegate (spouse), share only some of our policies with
> that delegate, and have that delegate recognized as acting on our behalf.
>
> - Adrian
>
> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 5:06 PM Mike Prorock <mprorock@mesur.io> wrote:
>
>> Adrian,
>> In that linked post you state:
>>
>>> With respect to the UDHRs, I would point to
>>> 12 (privacy and confidentiality), 13 (anonymity), 14 (limit the reach of
>>> DHS and other state actors), 17 (the right to associate with and delegate
>>> to others), 18 (associate with and delegate to communities one chooses),
>>> 20
>>> (association, again), 21 (secret elections), 22 (anonymity), 23 (trade
>>> unions as delegates), 24 (burden of managing decisions in an asymmetric
>>> power relationship with the state or with dominant private platforms), 29
>>> (duties to and scope of the community).
>>
>>
>> I think Bob may have been asking for some direct links, as I am
>> explicitly asking for now.  Basically [citation needed]
>>
>> Mike Prorock
>> CTO, Founder
>> https://mesur.io/
>>
>>
>>
>> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 4:16 PM Adrian Gropper <agropper@healthurl.com>
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Yes, Bob. Here are some references to UDHR
>>> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-credentials/2022Jan/0017.html
>>>
>>> Adrian
>>>
>>> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 3:56 PM Bob Wyman <bob@wyman.us> wrote:
>>>
>>>> Adrian,
>>>> You wrote: "Burdening the user to both store and control their
>>>> credential using a "holder" principle is a violation of a person's *right
>>>> to delegate*."
>>>>
>>>> Could you please explain what you mean by the "right to delegate?" Is
>>>> this "right" either enumerated within or implied by some existing
>>>> constitution or international document such as the Universal Declaration of
>>>> Human Rights? While I certainly agree that there are many things that users
>>>> should be able to delegate, I'm not sure how one would argue for an
>>>> entitlement to delegate which is so fundamental that one would call it a
>>>> "right."
>>>>
>>>> bob wyman
>>>>
>>>>
>>>> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 2:29 PM Adrian Gropper <agropper@healthurl.com>
>>>> wrote:
>>>>
>>>>> Anil,
>>>>>
>>>>> Here's the beginning and the conclusion that relates to W3C SSI work:
>>>>>
>>>>> If we do want to change our relationship to technology, I think we’d
>>>>> have to do it intentionally. My basic thoughts are roughly:
>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>>    1. *We should accept the premise that people will not run their
>>>>>>    own servers by designing systems that can distribute trust without having
>>>>>>    to distribute infrastructure.* This means architecture that
>>>>>>    anticipates and accepts the inevitable outcome of relatively centralized
>>>>>>    client/server relationships, but uses cryptography (rather than
>>>>>>    infrastructure) to distribute trust. One of the surprising things to me
>>>>>>    about web3, despite being built on “crypto,” is how little cryptography
>>>>>>    seems to be involved!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> This is also the point I've been trying to make from a human rights
>>>>> perspective: *Burdening the user to both store and control their
>>>>> credential using a "holder" principle is a violation of a person's right to
>>>>> delegate*.
>>>>>
>>>>> It could also be counter-productive to adoption of our work, including
>>>>> "crypto", on standardized digital credentials. One of the places I
>>>>> experience this personally is when the vast majority of government agencies
>>>>> insist on me providing them with "Release Forms" and do not accept the
>>>>> documents themselves. I agree that most private verifiers do accept the
>>>>> documents but even they are likely to balk at redacted "presentations".
>>>>>
>>>>> - Adrian
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>>
>>>>> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 1:34 PM Philipp Schmidt <phi.schmidt@gmail.com>
>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>
>>>>>> Moxie’s piece is excellent. I also found the comparison to web 1.0
>>>>>> and 2.0 in Tim O’Reilly’s article useful:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> https://www.oreilly.com/radar/why-its-too-early-to-get-excited-about-web3/
>>>>>>
>>>>>> I would like to read more thoughtful and well argued pro-web3
>>>>>> articles, appreciate links from this community!
>>>>>>
>>>>>> P
>>>>>>
>>>>>>
>>>>>> On Tue, Jan 18, 2022 at 1:28 PM Phillip Long <pdlong2@asu.edu> wrote:
>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anil: Moxie is the founder of Whisper Systems, acquired back in
>>>>>>> Twitter in 2011. Later he developed Signal (the secure messaging app), etc.
>>>>>>> A similar critique of web3 was published recently by Jeff Galloway (a
>>>>>>> polarizing voice for many to be sure) at
>>>>>>> https://www.profgalloway.com/web3/
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Phil
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> *e: *pdlong2@asu.edu
>>>>>>> Adaptive Learning Library Consultant
>>>>>>> *org:* EdPlus/ASU
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> https://edplus.asu.edu/what-we-do/orchard-adaptive-learning-experience
>>>>>>> *SNS:* https://www.linkedin.com/in/longpd
>>>>>>> <https://edplus.asu.edu/what-we-do/orchard-adaptive-learning-experience>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> On Jan 18, 2022, at 12:06 PM, John, Anil <anil.john@hq.dhs.gov>
>>>>>>> wrote:
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Given the continuous discussions around
>>>>>>> centralization/de-centralization in our community, I found this essay by
>>>>>>> Moxie Marlinspike …
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> My first impressions of web3
>>>>>>> https://moxie..org/2022/01/07/web3-first-impressions.html
>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://urldefense.us/v3/__https:/moxie.org/2022/01/07/web3-first-impressions.html__;!!BClRuOV5cvtbuNI!TWHO5okUoNLRfejX8R4fouQNtXHpePRJgCEMSTTdyJyd1YeYLaovlTtxC0oRLOgLPpNr$__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!IrG5_q6AE6qea1FemPCOy_y8YEw9na8etw2kGHXAB8UhTKiwV9Y0BRQlLhFxxsU$>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> … to have aspects that have relevance to the DID/VC work.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> If you don’t know who Moxie Marlinspike is, recommend doing a bit of
>>>>>>> due diligence to find out.
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Best Regards,
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anil
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Anil John
>>>>>>> Technical Director, Silicon Valley Innovation Program
>>>>>>> Science and Technology Directorate
>>>>>>> US Department of Homeland Security
>>>>>>> Washington, DC, USA
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> Email Response Time – 24 Hours
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>> <image002.jpg>
>>>>>>> <https://urldefense.com/v3/__https://www.dhs.gov/science-and-technology__;!!IKRxdwAv5BmarQ!IrG5_q6AE6qea1FemPCOy_y8YEw9na8etw2kGHXAB8UhTKiwV9Y0BRQlcTnIC1M$>
>>>>>>> <image004.jpg>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
>>>>>>>
Received on Tuesday, 18 January 2022 22:43:25 UTC

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