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[MINUTES] W3C CCG Credentials CG Call - 2022-04-12

From: CCG Minutes Bot <minutes@w3c-ccg.org>
Date: Tue, 12 Apr 2022 17:23:24 +0000
Message-ID: <E1neKEb-0000T1-7t@titan.w3.org>
Thanks to Our Robot Overlords and Manu Sporny and Our Robot Overlords and Manu Sporny for scribing this week!

The transcript for the call is now available here:

https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2022-04-12/

Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes.
Audio of the meeting is available at the following location:

https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2022-04-12/audio.ogg

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W3C CCG Weekly Teleconference Transcript for 2022-04-12

Agenda:
  https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-credentials/2022Apr/0049.html
Topics:
  1. Introductions / Reintroductions
  2. NFT Identity
  3. Elina (Dock.io) on NFTs
  4. Evin (Disco.xyz) on NFTs
  5. Dominic (walt.id) on NFTs
  6. NFT Questions, Answers, and Discussion
Organizer:
  Heather Vescent, Mike Prorock, Kimberly Linson
Scribe:
  Our Robot Overlords and Manu Sporny and Our Robot Overlords and Manu Sporny
Present:
  Heather Vescent, Enrico, JeffO Real-IT, Alan Karp, Dom | walt.id, 
  Simone Ravaoli, Taylor (LEF), TallTed // Ted Thibodeau (he/him) 
  (OpenLinkSw.com), Erica Connell, Fiona, Mike Prorock, Stuart 
  Freeman, Elina, Scott Meyer, Manu Sporny, Harrison Tang, 
  Anastasia, Dmitri Zagidulin, Marty Reed, Nick Meyne, Jay 
  Scambler, Juan Caballero, Joe Andrieu, Charles E. Lehner, Ryan 
  Grant, Will Abramson, Colin, LEF, eric, Raphael Roullet, James 
  Chartrand, Chris Abernethy (mesur.io), Leo, Colin (LEF), 
  Geun-Hyung, Evin, Steve Magennis, Malini (vlinder), Kaliya Young, 
  Shubham, Jouni @ Lens protocol, D. Tindall, PL, Shubham - Respct, 
  Heather Flanagan, Oscar | AAVE, Nathan, Shubham | Respct, Kayode 
  Ezike, Cent, Dan Pape, David Chadwick, Kimberly Linson, David I. 
  Lehn, Chooy2ah, nintynick, Balazs Nemethi, Hans Pongratz, Shawn 
  Butterfield, Sam Curren, Orie Steele, Sandro Cacciamani

Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
Manu Sporny is scribing.
Heather Vescent: Join: 
  https://www.w3.org/community/credentials/join
Heather Vescent:  We are talking about NFT identity today. A 
  quick intro to CCG.
<scott_meyer> that link requires sign in?
Heather Vescent:  Please sign IPR agreement if you want to join - 
  allows collaboration on work items -- we incubated Verifiable 
  Credentials and Decentralized Identifiers here.
Heather Vescent:  There have been a lot of rumblings around NFTs 
  and Identity - Ethereum native identity layer.
Heather Vescent:  Hope folks joining today can talk about this -- 
  some reminders before we start.
Heather Vescent: CEPC: https://www.w3.org/Consortium/cepc/
Heather Vescent:  First, reminder -- by participating you are 
  agreement to Code of Ethics and Professional Conduct -- strong 
  opinions here, there are people from many different perspectives 
  and world views -- anyone can become member.
Heather Vescent:  You need a W3C account to join.
Heather Vescent: https://www.w3.org/community/credentials/
Heather Vescent:  Here's the CGs main page -- from that page, you 
  can join/leave -- need a free account to join.
Hvesscent: These minutes and audio recording are archived -- will 
  send this out to CCG list (minutes) -- if you want to speak, you 
  can type "q +"
Heather Vescent:  If you want to remove yourself, "q -"
Heather Vescent:  If you want to remind yourself about what 
  you're going to say, you can do "q+ to ... and the thing you want 
  to say"

Topic: Introductions / Reintroductions

Heather Vescent:  This meeting is held by voice not IRC so 
  off-topic comments are subject to deletion from the record okay 
  so first thing I want to do is introductions are reintroductions 
  actually I'd like to kind of keep this short because we do have a 
  lot of folks on the call actually I'm going to skip this today.
Heather Vescent:   But I will not.
Heather Vescent:  Announcements and reminders do we have any 
  Community announcements or reminders if we do please add yourself 
  to the queue.
Heather Vescent:  I know I W is coming up does anyone want to 
  make an announcement about IW.
Kaliya Young:  It's we're basically sold out.
Heather Vescent:  Well congrats on that.
Kaliya Young:  Yeah so I wasn't going to announce cuz you can't 
  really buy a ticket anywhere anyway so.
Heather Vescent:  Well great what's the cap.
<smagennis> Need a larger venue!!
https://internetidentityworkshop.com/
Kaliya Young:  We were going to be capped at 250 but there's 
  still like sponsors who bought tickets and haven't registered 
  their people and stuff and.
Kaliya Young:  See where we actually end up right now we're 
  officially to the you know people walking up to the Eventbrite 
  door we're not selling more tickets.
Heather Vescent:  Got it cool thanks.
Heather Vescent:  Other announcements are reminders.

Topic: NFT Identity

Heather Vescent:  Okay okay so let's go straight into nft 
  identity so that we keep the majority of this meeting focus on 
  that at this point I love to hand over to my two partners and 
  putting this together Simone a and Taylor I know each of you have 
  some words you'd like to say so whichever of you wants to go 
  first feel free.
Our Robot Overlords are scribing.
Taylor_(LEF): I can hop in first real quick and I'll make this 
  pretty brief to leave more time for the conversation thank you 
  Heather and Simoni and obviously others that have been behind the 
  scenes working on this as well as all the other work with in w3c 
  and ccg this has been a nice little window into into that sort of 
  administrative world and all that goes into it so yeah I think.
Taylor_(LEF): I'll keep it I'll keep it brief Taylor Kendall I'm 
  with learning economy foundation and we work at the sort of Nexus 
  of of web 3 Open Standards and education and employment so so 
  this conversation is definitely of interest in sort of squarely 
  in the in the sights of what we spend time on so I think what I 
  wanted to bring here really is just I guess some level setting 
  and looking at it at it from a kind of bigger picture and really.
Taylor_(LEF):  you judgments aside I mean obviously there's.
Taylor_(LEF): And philosophical views on kind of entities in web 
  3 and what it means to you know to this work and to just sort of 
  the evolution of Technology broadly and I think I think in in 
  this discussion as well as just sort of this community at large 
  and and and as a society I think it's important both to just 
  listen and make honest attempts to truly hear each other agree or 
  not with you know.
Taylor_(LEF):  where this world is evolving I.
<identitywoman> if you really want to come to IIW - we will 
  release some tickets. (cause like 20 people said they would pay 
  at the door - and we are asking them to pay up front or forgo 
  their ticket) ..put yourself on the waiting list on eventbrite.
Kaliya Young: http://www.internetidentityworkshop.com
Heather Vescent:  Great thanks Taylor Simone I can I pass it to 
  you and then let you introduce our first speaker.
Simone_Ravaioli_(W3C_VC_EDU): Thank you heather hello everyone 
  Simona here my day job is with parchment company working in the 
  digital credentials for Education space specifically higher 
  education and at night or the rest of the time I try to build out 
  the global credentialing ecosystem particularly across education 
  and work in w3c have the pleasure of co-chairing a specific task 
  force that looks at verifiable credentials in the education 
  sector.
Simone_Ravaioli_(W3C_VC_EDU): Um and really you know it's w3c is 
  really trying to work on how the web works I think any of these 
  are kind of too big to ignore and although it feels like we're 
  building different camps you know when you try to build consensus 
  across standards or Technologies it's as Taylor said it's not 
  either/or it's and in I guess my hypothesis for this conversation 
  is that.
Simone_Ravaioli_(W3C_VC_EDU): Are good for both verifiable 
  credentials and the 80s and with that I mean that there are 
  positive externalities that nft is could bring two standards 
  making and effectively that means adoption because in my view and 
  not just in my view you know the standards only really come 
  through adoption and everything else is just specifications.
Simone_Ravaioli_(W3C_VC_EDU):  and the way nft.
Simone_Ravaioli_(W3C_VC_EDU): Be helping with adoption is that 
  you know they're just getting millions of people on board the to 
  using New Primitives and and tooling that is that are new to web 
  three like setting up a wallet minting and T or just 
  understanding what gasps fees are and he's management and so on 
  and so the cultural attractiveness of something that may look 
  like just your profile picture or that is expressive in terms.
Simone_Ravaioli_(W3C_VC_EDU):  of representing your identity as.
Simone_Ravaioli_(W3C_VC_EDU): A lot of people do on board already 
  and I guess as people are on that Learning Journey they will 
  understand you know what other tools are there what other 
  Primitives that can use and when it makes sense to use verifiable 
  credentials or dids rather than an STS and I guess the idea for 
  this first conversation was to set some kind of Observatory that 
  would bring in different opinions in to elevate the level of the 
  conversation and maybe.
Simone_Ravaioli_(W3C_VC_EDU):  be as an outcome.
Simone_Ravaioli_(W3C_VC_EDU): What are the use cases that are 
  better served by an STS and the ones that are better served by 
  VCS and the ideas or when they could combine and that is really 
  what we wanted to try to instigate with this kind of first chat 
  and to do that we have a number of speakers here that will help 
  us get down this this road and I actually like to call.
Simone_Ravaioli_(W3C_VC_EDU):  on Evan.
Evin: Thank you so much I'm sorry go ahead.

Topic: Elina (Dock.io) on NFTs

<simone_ravaioli_(w3c_vc_edu)> Hey PL !
Elina: Check can you hear me okay.
Heather Vescent:  I can hear you but it is.
Elina: Great and apologies I am feeling a little bit under the 
  weather so my voice might sound a little bit off but great to be 
  here my name is Alina kaduri I am co-founder and CEO IDOC been 
  working in Block Chain space and kind of watching identity space 
  since 2017 and on the topic of NF T's I think I'm kind of hold of 
  what's been said but I think the popularity of NF T's has been 
  really interesting to see because it's.
Elina:  really shed light on use cases for.
Manu Sporny:  Evans audio went gray it's the only reason I'm 
  saying.
Heather Vescent:  Let's see will come back to her Alina are you 
  ready to.
Heather Vescent:   Go next.
Heather Vescent:   We can hear you great.
Elina: For technologies that are backed or enhanced by blockchain 
  Beyond providing Financial assets and I think what we're seeing 
  now is some of those use cases are overlapping with identity and 
  kind of what we we've been you know working on for a while with 
  identity so things like being able to prove ownership over a 
  digital asset and we're seeing things like POAPs which are proof 
  of attendance protocols so nft s you know a few.
Elina:  you attend an event or concert.
Elina: To sing and if T's being used a fork sort of like identity 
  symbols in some ways so for example like showing a status or an 
  endorsement of something and so I think what's great about that 
  makes money was mentioning this really well as it has kind of set 
  the stage up a bit for adoption of VCs with the kind of 
  introducing ways that we can enhance kind of what we're doing 
  using blockchain technology.
Elina:  where NF T's fall short.
<bradley_freeman_|_aave> i texted Evin her power went out but 
  she's trying to get back online!
<simone_ravaioli_(w3c_vc_edu)> Here is a bit more rationale of 
  why I think NFTs are good for VCs and DIDs 
  https://twitter.com/psykoreactor/status/1513888579986075652?s=20&t=33j_wOoxnAV8KPfVDVYa5w
<bradley_freeman_|_aave> @simone^^
Elina: And I'm going to say at least for now because I know some 
  of these are being worked on but nft is exist on chain so there 
  isn't as much kind of interoperability and accessibility with 
  non-web three applications.
Elina: As we are working on are more kind of traditional web to 
  space and so having you know identity assets so to speak that can 
  be used across different applications is really important whereas 
  an end of T you know it only exists on a theory a morsel on or 
  the chain where it's created and there's kind of number of other 
  issues that go along with that so big one is privacy concerns so 
  if and then if T's being used for an identity there could be.
Elina:  be pii data that's being put into the NF.
Elina: On-chain, there's issues of immutability as well there 
  could also be transparency into transactions so you can see that 
  you know nft was in my wallet or someone's wallet it's they're 
  extremely susceptible to fraud kind of see that over and over 
  again with you know the NFTs being issued and sold for millions 
  and it's also very expensive to transact on the blockchain with 
  NF.
Elina:  teas with VCs it's.
Elina: Extremely Hina very little to actually issue them and 
  verifying do a lot of the transactions whereas when it comes to 
  nifty's there's there can be very expensive gas fees but I do 
  think that they can work really well together I think VC's can 
  link identity information to NFTs that's tamper-proof and privacy 
  preserving and a few examples of that are for example being able 
  to.
Elina:  identify the.
<evin> I'm back! :)
Elina: Real-world identity of an and ft Creator and I could also 
  you know be done for example with like this.
<heather_vescent> See you Evin.
<heather_vescent> We'll have you go after Elina. Thanks.
<taylor_(lef)> Woohoo... she's back :)
Elina: So that you don't actually you know have to know you know 
  see that person's identity but have some sort of verification in 
  place to really prevent kind of fraud knowing that you know the 
  brand or the person behind the end of T is actually who they say 
  they are also being able to prove like reputation of nft sellers 
  so right now kind of you know open sea and a lot of nft 
  marketplaces are you know there isn't a.
Elina:  lot of insight into.
Elina: His you know who's interacting they're so being able to 
  kind of have a reputation layer that's connected to NFTs and also 
  being able to prove qualifications taxes and FTS so VCC could be 
  used for example if an FTS are only appropriate for people over 
  certain age you know being able to prove that there is a 
  qualification there or being able to prove for example if an 
  artist wants to issue and if T's just to their fans and so 
  connecting back.
Elina:  back to either you know being part of a community.
Elina: And things so I think that made may take the lease on it 
  right now as I think there's some really interesting ways that 
  the two could work together I also think it's really important to 
  understand where NFTs fall short we do kind of talk to different 
  projects sometimes that are wanting to use NF to use for identity 
  kind of use cases so being able to really kind of articulate 11 
  makes sense when the other makes sense how they can work together 
  is really important.
Elina:  so go ahead and stop there.
Elina: And it are back together.
Heather Vescent:  I think Selena that's great Evan sounds like 
  you're back you want to do an audio check.

Topic: Evin (Disco.xyz) on NFTs

Evin: Yes we are back in Action just had a random power outage so 
  thank you all for your patience but really glad to be here and so 
  pleased that I was able to catch the last few comments want to 
  agree completely there I think that you know and I've teased her 
  wonderful primitive optimized for you know public on chain 
  transferability I'm a huge NFP Enthusiast myself I have ear see 
  721 tattooed on the back of my neck but I also think that 
  verifiable.
Evin:  what credentials are almost like the other side of the 
  coin.
Evin: In the same way that you know nft is offer persistent 
  Global availability verifiable credentials allow for a more 
  flexible and organic form of data to more precisely describe the 
  the more abstract and and evolving data that describes both 
  individuals organizations you know object cetera I'm really 
  excited especially about the nft did method and our ability to 
  append human-readable independently verifiable data.
Evin:  for things like promo.
Evin: Being able to bind together the minting keys of an mft with 
  things like a human-readable website Discord server Twitter 
  handle etcetera email address at disco our team focuses on the 
  end users ability to take custody of their verifiable credentials 
  and manage them alongside the activities of sovereign activities 
  that they already undertake in the web three world with their 
  wallets so we see these Primitives.
Evin:   complementary to one another.
https://twitter.com/discoxyz
Evin: You did for for a variety of different use cases and so for 
  those instances in which traits are intended to be 
  non-transferable you know I think that verifiable credentials are 
  an optimal approach I think the limiting factor for VCS right now 
  is the available tooling right we have no way to easily take 
  custody of manage and then leverage our verifiable credentials 
  across ecosystems in a chain agnostic or even web agnostic way 
  web to web three.
Evin: Exposing users to potential security risks down the line 
  and so you know depending on encryption to hold forever making 
  data public in such that we might also make it private by 
  encrypting things you know on chain seems like a an interesting 
  exploration but a temporary solution given the reality of quantum 
  Computing that we know today so I could talk about this forever 
  but I'll pause and and you know welcome other perspectives on 
  this as well.
Heather Vescent:  Great thanks Evan fascinating Dominic are you 
  ready to take the take the spotlight talk about what you're doing 
  at will tidy.

Topic: Dominic (walt.id) on NFTs

<evin> <3
https://walt.id/white-papers
Manu Sporny:  Keep going I got you.
<heather_vescent> Do I restart the recording Manu?
<manu_sporny> heather, no, just leave it.
<heather_vescent> copy that
Manu Sporny: Dominic: I always think that Evin says the most 
  important things -- Evin has a great job. SSI is good to prove 
  who you are, NFTs are good to prove what you own.
Manu Sporny: Dominic: Typical identity related use case -- 
  diplomas, so on, you cannot really use NFTs -- not less scalable 
  more expensive... GDPR -- in europe, you can't do this. You can't 
  anchor DIDs of natural persons on a blockchain.
Manu Sporny is scribing.
Dom: However, you can do other things w/ NFTs -- decouple 
  identity w/ access rights... opens up opportunities for non-human 
  identity -- NFT identity for legal identities, IoT -- SSI is more 
  interesting given costs and scalability.
Dom: I'll leave it at that -- most important things have been 
  said -- Q/A most important for everyone.
<transcriber> Simone_Ravaioli_(W3C_VC_EDU): Yep confirm he's not 
  here today.

Topic: NFT Questions, Answers, and Discussion

Heather Vescent:  We have almost half an hour of discussion here 
  -- if you have questions, add yourself to the queue.
Alan Karp:  How to figure out how to unmute just to the last 
  comment about NF T's as authorizations I don't think that's a 
  very good match because you want to be able to do revocation and 
  you also want to be able to delegate without giving up your own 
  ability to use it so I think maybe that's not as good of a 
  pattern as I thought you were in polling.
Heather Vescent:  Does anyone want to respond to that.
Heather Vescent:  And if you you can add yourself to the queue 
  and even if you were not a presenter and you have a comment on it 
  you can add yourself to the queue because I know we have other 
  folks who work in the space as well on the call.
<transcriber> Evin: Quick response I think you know what you're 
  highlighting part of the challenge right that there's no consent 
  layer on web three wallets so public keys and blockchain 
  ecosystem can be mapped to you know whatever token IDs others 
  would like and so verifiable credentials offer some ability to 
  govern and manage attestations once they've made their way out in 
  the ecosystem granted Reliant Upon A revocation registry or 
  similar or.
<transcriber> Evin:  expiration of those.
<transcriber> Evin: Angels regular renewal but you know 22 you're 
  very thoughtful point and ftes have a diminished capability here 
  right once that asset is issued the issue were maintains little 
  to no meaningful control over its validity and can only control 
  that validity by controlling the points of access where might be 
  used.
Dom: You might want to build stronger bonds with communities, 
  revocation might not be necessary -- certain number of skins -- 
  might not need to revoke that.
Dom: Different game diffrent map -- maybe revocation isn't 
  important everywhere... dynamic NFTs -- write smart contracts in 
  a way such that NFT is used in a way for access management, smart 
  contract can be changed... NFTs can be burned a certain number of 
  times -- you could build in certain lifecycle management into 
  smart contract.
Dom: If we look at typical identity use cases -- revoke things, 
  maybe not important for every use case.
<bumblefudge> license keys are back, baybee
Heather Vescent:  Please thanks Dominic one of the things that 
  you said I thought was really interesting was you're talking 
  about identity for nonhumans like legal entity identifier and I 
  think a lot of identity is important for supply chain use cases 
  where there are objects and we might be tracking them and 
  attaching data Associated to a digital twin or something that you 
  know goes through supply chain I know a lot of us in.
Heather Vescent:   This community and.
Heather Vescent:  A lot of the use cases for dids and VCS were 
  created around the user Centric identity perspective the human 
  user identity perspective and one of the things I think is really 
  interesting about NF t s is that if we think about them from a 
  human Centric identity we are limiting ourselves to the 
  possibilities we're going to have significantly more non human 
  identity.
Heather Vescent:   Key items.
Juan Caballero: 
  https://i.ytimg.com/vi/zngaFPyIvjs/maxresdefault.jpg
Heather Vescent:  Our reality in our world then humans and so I'm 
  just wondering if any of the presenters are anyone who's working 
  in this space wants to comment on the applicability of NFTs to 
  non-human identity.
<bumblefudge> +
<bumblefudge> 1
<transcriber> Evin: Just one note I think so like in you know 
  2017 he's a lot of experiments around supply chain that leveraged 
  nft S as a representation of physical assets to be sort of passed 
  between wallets representing various parties and without a 
  reputation system policing the behavior of the parties around 
  those objects you kind of lose their a lot of holes in that 
  system and so so I think the combination of NF T's plus you know 
  contextual off.
<transcriber> Evin:  Gene data on representation and and 
  reputation of the parties and.
<transcriber> Evin: Drones making choices around those assets 
  being tracked leads to a much more holistic and robust full.
<transcriber> Elina: Yeah just to add to that I think we're 
  seeing something similar where we're seeing and of T's being used 
  to represent kind of the goods that are being transferred or sore 
  you know whatever is being tracked and then a b c's for example 
  could represent the credentialing for whoever is you know the 
  parties involved being able to have that be verifiable and 
  traceable as well and especially we're seeing a lot of it kind of 
  in Pharmaceuticals.
<transcriber> Elina: I'm coming up and then also.
<smagennis> I'm still struggling to get my head around an 
  'identity' of a non-person vs. and 'identifier' which makes a lot 
  of sense
<transcriber> Elina: A little bit kind of food supply chain as 
  well so that's kind of another example going back to cut being 
  able to differentiate between the two and we're we're species can 
  really have that kind of confidentiality layer representing the 
  people involved and then and of teas can represent actual Goods 
  being being part of the supply chain.
Heather Vescent:  Thanks Mike I see you're on the key.
Mike Prorock:  Yeah just speaking from the implementation side on 
  you know track and trace on you know physical goods and 
  credentialing and trade and stuff like that there's three kind of 
  key problems that we see from the nft side one is you know even 
  in just using it to act as a digital twin right with no other 
  data attached to it aside from you know what wallet owns it one 
  in one is you know for sure the reputation point that was brought 
  up the second.
Mike Prorock:  The privacy and trade concern side.
Mike Prorock:  Frankly it's a privacy not nft Zara privacy 
  nightmare right you can trace this stuff down really well for 
  that reason alone they will never see broad adoption because 
  there's too many issues with seeing who transferred from A to B 
  to C etcetera the and then kind of that last piece is just that 
  in this is somewhat related but is that information leakage side 
  right and this is.
Mike Prorock:   Part of the reason that we're seeing good.
Mike Prorock:  Adoption so far around verifiable credentials as 
  an ocean even whether you even from you know you know and you 
  talk to folks in the industry like I'm thinking in our case of 
  like a Gore egg by-product you know organic type codes things 
  like that you know they're typically they don't care whether it's 
  a verifiable credential or an N of t or whether it uses block it 
  like they genuinely don't care you know aside from maybe some 
  Buzz words for marketing reasons what they.
Mike Prorock:  About is their privacy protected are they.
Mike Prorock:  Should do a competitor are they only turning over 
  the information required to you know various Regulatory Agencies 
  Etc so there's a lot wrapped up in that topic it's a great topic 
  and I think it's an interesting question but just that chaining 
  of you know who did what or even just the wallet ID of who did 
  what would break it Wars could start over that let's just put it 
  that way so.
<bumblefudge> and he don't mean price wars
<heather_vescent> great question Manu
<shubham> Love the documentation on walt.id @Dom
<jay_scambler> Good question
Heather Vescent:  Balázs you're on the queue.
Manu Sporny:  What lessons from the NFT community has he DID/VC 
  community not gotten? What did we not learn yet?
Manu Sporny:  Yeah it's a mostly a question so in this has been 
  great like you know fantastic discussion and I'm you know going 
  back to a statement but that was said at the beginning of the 
  call where you know the VC did Community has a lot to learn from 
  the nft community and the nft community you know could learn a 
  couple of things from the VC and did Community I'm wondering what 
  are some lessons learned.
Manu Sporny:   Earned in the nft community that folks feel like 
  the VC and did Community don't quite understand yet right so we 
  heard from Mike you know about the traceability you know aspects 
  and and how how easy it is to trace you know and if these from 
  point A to point B that sounds like a lesson from the BC did side 
  to the nft side but what about from the nft side like like one of 
  the things that comes to.
<scott_meyer> NFTs are fun!
Heather Vescent:  Thanks Dom I see you on the Queue your.
Balazs: Non-transferrable NFTs -- DIDs/VCs -- never had to 
  explain what an NFT or non-transferrable NFT was... pretty sure 
  that is something this community has experienced... what is a 
  DID/NFT -- a lot has been removed from flow of making easy 
  decision. Only works for extremely specific use cases.
Heather Vescent:  Dominic from Walt's id'd is you want to make a 
  comment.
<dom_|_walt.id> seems my mic broke
<dom_|_walt.id> will rejoin
Heather Vescent:  Okay we'll skip you and see if you can rejoin 
  and then we'll add you then Simone a your.
<transcriber> Simone_Ravaioli_(W3C_VC_EDU): Yes so given that the 
  framing of this conversation was also an FDA and identity I 
  wanted to invite a comment from some of the friends that are here 
  from lens protocol Lance has been building an interesting 
  protocol that really relies on nft is to express you know 
  identities but also deeper than that the whole social graph 
  behind and identity and so if you know Oscar you and me or anyone 
  wants to open the mic and share with their.
<transcriber> Simone_Ravaioli_(W3C_VC_EDU):  doing I think that 
  would be a great addition to this chat.
https://lens.dev/
<jouni_@_lens_protocol> lens.dev
Jouni: Hi, I'm from Lens -- met Simone at Invent -- taught me 
  about what's possible... Lens protocol itself, building an open 
  social graph on Ethereum, running on polygon -- cost of 
  transactions concerns are valid -- scaling solutions over time -- 
  polygon is one of them... push cost of transaction down to cents 
  or below -- doesn't matter too much for infrequent transactions.
Jouni: if you think of social graph/twitter -- can be anonymous, 
  up to you for what you do -- profiles, no PII, up to you, doesn't 
  hold location, gender, age, etc. Idea is to break down walls 
  between different existing social protocols, difficult for new 
  projects to complete -- shared public goods social graph, 
  developers can build front-ends, if you're not happy w/ 
  experience, you can build your own interface.
<shubham> @Jouni Why can't we do everything you mentioned using 
  DIDs?
Jouni: Follower relationships with NFTs -- in terms of 
  marketplace activities, you can collect posts made by others -- 
  interesting chats w/ Evin / Disco, kinda quick overview there -- 
  happy to answer questions.
Heather Vescent:  Cool thanks Dominic I see your back is your mic 
  working.
<orie> One thing that everyone can do with DIDs, is resolve 
  certain keys to blockchain addresses, and then pull any related 
  transactions for the ledgers.... the graph you get should be 
  empty usually, but sometimes it has interesting history :)
<simone_ravaioli_(w3c_vc_edu)> Thank you @Jouni !
<mprorock> unfortunately i have to jump to a customer call.  This 
  has been great - really enjoying the topic and conversation
<mprorock> thanks all
<heather_vescent> Thanks Mike.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IhT2JSsmf1Y
Dom: Not sure if it's an answer to Manu's questions or 
  observation -- what NFTs got right was adoption/traction... when 
  we look at SSI, seeing that we're looking at 3-sided marketplace, 
  incentive structures for supply side was difficult -- issuers 
  have been neglected, what NFTs got right is they found use cases 
  by which sources of NFTs, supply side was incentivized to issue 
  NFTs because they benefit from it... crucial for adoption. SSI 
  issuers, difficult,
If we could convince issuers to do their job, they could onboard 
  a lot of people -- potential issuers and apps they have... 
  various populations... incentive structures that lead to 
  adoption. Look at NFT world and how they did that.
Heather Vescent:  Thanks Dominic Marty we've got you next on the 
  Queue over.
Orie Steele: +1 To DIDs, NFTs and VCs working together!
Marty Reed:  Yeah so plus one Dominic on the rewards network idea 
  I think I think that's absolutely critical so one thing back to 
  man is earlier question about you know would have been if he's 
  gotten right one thing that is really interesting about the nft 
  world is platforms like Open Sea so your average user can go out 
  create in FTS but they are also.
Marty Reed:   There also.
Marty Reed:  Inefficient smart contracts on open sea but I was 
  curious just globally like anybody answer this question but are 
  there any projects going on right now like an Open Sea in did the 
  SeaWorld or other nft platforms you know that have done a better 
  job with more efficient smart contracts for end-users to you know 
  be able to directly interface with the technology.
Marty Reed:   Just going to.
Heather Vescent:  Yeah so if anyone has a answer to that can you 
  add yourself to the queue.
Heather Vescent:  Or speak up right now.
<shubham> I heard Respct.club is attemping this!
Heather Vescent:  Okay I'll give it a pause oh sorry go.
Jouni: We got protocol there, building front-ends on testnet -- 
  easy, like posting something on Twitter, set different settings 
  on metadata -- issuing NFTs are as simple as posting on Facebook.
Heather Vescent:  Great thank someone I saw that you were going 
  to answer the question so we'll skip.
Juan Caballero:  Sure thanks I guess I didn't quite understand 
  the question if there are self-serve platforms like Open Sea 
  getting people VCS or using PC's for nft there are two different 
  questions that have different answers.
<orie> I happened to make a DID + VC + NFT demo here: 
  https://didme.me/did:meme:1zgsx8lw923gnw7j8hp0exnklzds9pnr07c4d535rtzuyv8935jrfmysr72fmx
<orie> its all open source, ethereum testnet
Juan Caballero:  Of us sort of self-serve platform so I think 
  that well let's Spruce when I spruce a company I worked for till 
  recently worked on a couple serve platforms that principle.
Heather Vescent:  Do we won on certain rep or losing your audio.
<heather_vescent> ROTFL Orie
Marty Reed:  Well I just just be seized or dids or those types of 
  things just curious about projects that are out there right now 
  noth-nothing they within ft open sea was just example.
Juan Caballero:  Sorry my mistake run Mike so yeah there's a 
  spruce we worked on something called tzprofiles.com that would 
  issue VC's to people who need them for very similar use cases to 
  what people are used to get a piece for like sort of basic not 
  very sensitive attestations that can be used to gain access to 
  things and there was a project to generalize that in open source 
  called rebase.
<marty_reed> Amazing Orie
<orie> I also work on rebase.xyz
Juan Caballero:  I mean there's a lot of self serve the sea use 
  cases that people could probably mention here in terms of 
  self-serve dad's I'm not really sure maybe or you can explain 
  better like how different side tree protocols prototypes and 
  variants have sort of a self-serve option.
Juan Caballero:  Involuntary so to speak I did if he cute glasses 
  yeah.
<marty_reed> Cool, just an improptu market scan
<jay_scambler> It’s coming though @marty
Shawn Butterfield:  Yeah sure I think I can probably make this 
  quick because really +1 to everything that's been said since men 
  whose question like over at Salesforce we are also grappling with 
  this question of how how did NFTs get such great Groundswell of 
  interest and they're on this type curve even internally to our 
  organization we have a huge team that is kind of rallied behind 
  this idea of nft.
Shawn Butterfield:   Loud over here that we're playing around 
  with and.
<identitywoman> sounds like we should be writing a explainer to 
  bridge between the two worlds
Shawn Butterfield:  It plays into the questions around hey you 
  know it is there a self-serve platform that's trying to start up 
  and discover and ft capabilities relative to commercial interests 
  that's something we're exploring over here and then in addition 
  to that building on the domes topic around the ones really kind 
  of like tackled the adoption problems for issuers that's also 
  something that we're trying to do and so I think that's back to 
  men is question.
<econnell> NFTs applied a narrative
<identitywoman> I have been trying to explain VCs to a key leader 
  in new-econ land for like 3 years - they FINALLY got it when 
  POAPs came out...it was like why!!! why did that make it click 
  for you. I am mystified.
<scott_meyer> seems like NFTs are fun so people figure them out?
Shawn Butterfield:  Basics of an N of T and then oh you know I 
  can I can kind of squint my eyes and get to where you know I can 
  apply that to a use case that I think is relevant even though the 
  unreal brooded understanding and the crypto or The Primitives of 
  an mft might not be there people are able to extrapolate upon and 
  if T's easily so I think that's something that we all and I take 
  it upon myself as well need to do a better job of evangelizing 
  and creating really good.
Shawn Butterfield:   Being efforts in.
Shawn Butterfield:  Season and Dead's and so that's what we're 
  trying to do.
<orie> its fine
Heather Vescent:  Great thanks Sean okay Nick you're next and 
  then all I don't know I don't want to cut you Joe or Rory off but 
  we're coming close to time so.
<nintynick> How is this different from a Soulbound NFT?
Heather Vescent:  Thanks Nick and Joe.
Meyne: We mint VCs for people to say they support an artist, we 
  don't allow that to be transferred.
Heather Vescent:  Over to you final comments.
Joe Andrieu: 
  https://github.com/EarthProgram/Identifiers/blob/main/index.md
<pl> It is interesting that in the HE world issuers of things 
  like transcripts (HE institutions) get monetary rewards from the 
  National Student Clearninghouse when the transcript is 
  'officially' provided to a relying party through the students 
  request to an institution that is routed to the NSC for 
  execution. That monetary benefit is threatened by VCs where the 
  transcript as a VC can be sent directly by the holder to the 
  relying party.
Joe Andrieu:  Thanks Heather I just want to share the work I've 
  been doing on entertain identifiers I don't think either party 
  has gotten it right in terms of nft and did camp but this was put 
  together as identifiers for nft so how do I identify and ftes and 
  then we also had identified a use case where the nft has a need 
  to identify things in the real world right so two layers of 
  identifiers happening in that spec and I think that the biggest 
  challenge that.
Joe Andrieu:   Folks I've been dealing with have been wrestling 
  with.
<bumblefudge> see also
Juan Caballero: 
  https://github.com/ChainAgnostic/CAIPs/blob/master/CAIPs/caip-22.md
Joe Andrieu:  How do you deal with SIDS from a different chain so 
  if I'm an mft on it cerium how do I do with any other did from 
  any other chains and that's it.
<bumblefudge> ^ A specification for cross-chain NFT 
  identification :D
<orie> yeahs, CAIPs are pretty cool
Heather Vescent:  Thanks Joe and actually you set me up the whole 
  question of standards and interoperability was kind of a reason I 
  wanted to invite everyone from the nft camp to come talk in this 
  ECG I think there's a lot of overlap here the ccg our structure 
  here is such that we have a structure for people to be able to 
  collaborate I'm pre standards work on exploratory standards work 
  and that that process.
Heather Vescent:   This is called work.
Heather Vescent:  And so I hope this is just like the first 
  conversation that we have there's a ton of overlap and what I'd 
  really like to see is if you know those of you guys who are from 
  the NFC Camp to come play in our sandbox here and help us do some 
  work items help us learn the structures that you guys have are 
  working on and and how we can support those goals the goals you 
  have and we can overlap with each other through some of these.
<simone_ravaioli_(w3c_vc_edu)> :+1: part two !
<taylor_(lef)> More to come...thx all :)
Heather Vescent:  We'll see you next week we are actually not 
  meeting on the end of the month when IW is happening will send 
  those updates via the list and will send the recording of this 
  session to the list as well.
<oscar_|_aave> Fascinating chat.. thanks everyone
https://www.respct.co/ is building something on consumer end
<enrico> Thank you!
<bumblefudge> unmusical chairs :(
Sam Curren: Bumblefudge+1
Received on Tuesday, 12 April 2022 17:23:24 UTC

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