Re: VC HTTP Authorization Conversation

Let’s not set up a false dichotomy. Giving the subject the right to
delegation does not imply anything more than that and takes nothing away
from anyone except those that would act through “regulatory capture”.

Asking individuals to fend for themselves and face 3,000 choices is a false
dichotomy because the ability to delegate allows the self-sovereign subject
to form coops or gangs or churches or seek the advice of trusted
intermediaries like lawyers and doctors.

Framing the issue as speed vs. perfection is also a false dichotomy. Our
goal is adoption, not a standard that fits government’s idea of
front-running something they might not be able to regulate.

- Adrian

On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 12:34 PM Steven Rowat <steven_rowat@sunshine.net>
wrote:

> On 2021-06-11 7:39 am, Adrian Gropper wrote:
>
> Before continuing this thread, please listen to this 3 1/2 minute news
> story from this morning:
>
> ...[snip]...
>
> We've worked so hard to make VCs "self-verifying". Do we really want to
> screw it up at the protocol level?
>
> Adrian, that's a powerful post and I agree with your concerns.
>
> But combined with Mike Varley's post from this morning, "we need a
> standard way for components to communicate (and VC-HTTP-API is one of these
> methods)," IMO the pivotal question is this:
>
> Could the formalising of the VC-HTTP-API *exclude* core SSI
> needs/features/goals for the wider community's use?
>
> If not, if all SSI options are still open even after VC-HTTP-API is
> formalised, then it doesn't matter very much, and we can address them later.
>
> But if having a restrictive, or indeed any, VC-HTTP-API at this stage
> could make it *harder or impossible* to achieve the privacy and SSI
> self-control goals, then it's not appropriate to go ahead with it without
> making those goals a part of the VC-HTTP-API discussion and formalising.
>
> But is there any way to answer this question to everyone's satisfaction?
> Perhaps that would require knowing the future.
>
> If so, then maybe we're viewing a parting of the ways. Maybe there is no
> direct solution.
>
>
>
> Steven Rowat
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Fri, Jun 11, 2021 at 9:49 AM Mike Varley <mike.varley@securekey.com>
> wrote:
>
>> Hi Adrian,
>>
>>
>>
>> > So people are suggesting that we should do OAuth2 first and then maybe
>> do UMA or GNAP later. The group is unclear whether "later" is in another
>> group and what customers will even care to implement attenuated delegation
>> in the SSI protocols context. W3C might be just as happy for IETF to worry
>> about that.
>>
>>
>>
>> The problem for the VC-HTTP-API may be ‘smaller’ then what you are
>> describing. Currently there is a gap in how service providers
>> (issuers/holder/verifiers) consistently, in a standardized way, can
>> generate (or “mint”), verify, or obtain/receive these credentials. The
>> VC-HTTP-API is a (hope to be) standard API that services can integrate with
>> to consistently achieve those functions.
>>
>>
>>
>> In other words, system builders have a problem considering the bigger
>> questions you are asking, Adrian, because we haven’t settled on an API for
>> reliably working with credential containers or moving credentials around;
>> let alone worrying about how we got the credential or engaged with a
>> person/holder to begin with.
>>
>>
>>
>> Let’s assume we solved for the perfect SSI privacy preserving, delegation
>> authorization and trust model:
>>
>>    - As an issuer, what API do I call to generate a credential for this
>>    authorized session?
>>    - As an issuer (with a credential to deliver to a holder), is there
>>    an API I can call, or an API the holder can call to transfer the credential?
>>    - As a holder/presenter of credentials, what API do I need to support
>>    to collect a credential or present a credential presentation?
>>    - As a verifier, with the holder’s permission, what API to I support
>>    to reveive a presentation?
>>    - As a verifier, now that I have a credential presentation, how to I
>>    verify it for authenticity (i.e. properly signed by the involved
>>    parties/entities)
>>    - ++ (see use cases document)
>>
>>
>>
>> VC-HTTP-API may be a “bottom up” approach, where you (and other
>> interested in the authZ conversation) are approaching more “top down”. I
>> believe others in the group (and I will add my name to the list) want to
>> fully support the discussion you are driving towards with authorization and
>> delegation, but in a sequence of operations, by the time the
>> auth/bootstrapping/delegation/permission/policy decisioning is completed
>> (by issuer or holder or verifier) the VC-HTTP-API just has some “work to be
>> done”.
>>
>>
>>
>> For SSI to work the way we all want it to, your questions need to be
>> answered.
>>
>> For SSI to work at all (generally), we need a standard way for components
>> to communicate (and VC-HTTP-API is one of these methods).
>>
>>
>>
>> Does that help?
>>
>>
>>
>> MV
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Adrian Gropper <agropper@healthurl.com>
>> *Date: *Thursday, June 10, 2021 at 10:54 PM
>> *To: *Juan Caballero <juan.caballero@spherity.com>
>> *Cc: *Manu Sporny <msporny@digitalbazaar.com>, W3C Credentials Community
>> Group <public-credentials@w3.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: VC HTTP Authorization Conversation
>>
>> CAUTION: This email originated from outside of the organization. Do not
>> click links or open attachments unless you recognize the sender and know
>> the content is safe.
>>
>>
>>
>> I'm obviously missing something, and instead of explaining it to me,
>> people are just shouting louder and louder at why I need to get out of the
>> way of progress.
>>
>>
>>
>> Here's what I think I understand:
>>
>> ·         The VC-HTTP endpoint needs to be protected by some kind of
>> bearer *token* from a client or a cookie from a browser.
>>
>> ·         This *token* is subject to some "bootstrapping" protocol *that
>> may or may not be in scope* for this group.
>>
>> ·         Simply stopping with the token is "kicking the can down the
>> road" inadequate for the group.
>>
>> ·         So the group wants to do something with OAuth2 that might or
>> might not put the "bootstrap" in scope.
>>
>> ·         In (Alice-to-Bob) delegation use-cases where the client
>> presenting the token has not pre-registered with the VC-HTTP server, OAuth2
>> may not be sufficient.
>>
>> ·         In these delegation use cases, the VC-HTTP endpoint would need
>> to be protected by UMA or GNAP.
>>
>> ·         But nobody here is arguing for UMA and GNAP is seen as
>> presenting a delay to progress.
>>
>> ·         So folks want Adrian to stop insisting that Bob can be
>> delegated by Alice to access the VC-HTTP endpoint because all of their use
>> cases are fine with Alice and Alice's client always being an intermediary
>> holder for the VC.
>>
>> I'm OK if the group wants to keep "bootstrap", and OAuth2 along with it,
>> out of scope but that does not seem to be acceptable to some.
>>
>>
>>
>> So people are suggesting that we should do OAuth2 first and then maybe do
>> UMA or GNAP later. The group is unclear whether "later" is in another group
>> and what customers will even care to implement attenuated delegation in the
>> SSI protocols context. W3C might be just as happy for IETF to worry about
>> that.
>>
>>
>>
>> How'm I doing?
>>
>>
>>
>> - Adrian
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> On Thu, Jun 10, 2021 at 5:37 PM Juan Caballero <
>> juan.caballero@spherity.com> wrote:
>>
>> Inline
>>
>> On 6/10/2021 4:52 PM, Manu Sporny wrote:
>>
>> On 6/10/21 10:04 AM, Orie Steele wrote:
>>
>> I see the scope of the VC-HTTP-API as limited to the following:
>>
>>
>>
>> 1. HTTP endpoints for producing and consuming the W3C VC Data Model Objects
>>
>> 2. HTTP endpoints for producing and consuming extensions to the VC Data Model,
>>
>> or data structures it relies on, like Revocation Status and Credential Schemas
>>
>> 3. Recommendations for securing these HTTP endpoints using HTTP Headers.
>>
>> 4. Recommendations for exposing these HTTP endpoints inside and across trust
>>
>> domains.
>>
>> The above feels like a good start to a scoping statement.
>>
>> +1 from the use-case team.  We are coming up fast on the deadline for
>> "first drafts" of use cases that are far enough along to anchor PRs. If you
>> have opinions about #3 and #4 (especially an opinion like, "I would hate to
>> see mTLS discouraged as a valid option for #3/4"), a quick way to lobby for
>> that opinion is to submit a first-draft use case.  Feel free to "fork,"
>> riff, or expand on other peoples' submissions that are halfway to what you
>> want to see, but too brief, too specific in in describing a solution rather
>> than a problem, etc.
>>
>> Perhaps it would be better to start a CCG work item dedicated to GNAP and VCs?
>>
>> +1 to this, Adrian clearly wants to have this discussion, and polling of the
>>
>> VC HTTP API group is showing that there is not a lot of support for doing that
>>
>> in that group:
>>
>>
>>
>> https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2021-06-01-vchttpapi/#57
>>
>>
>>
>> A more focused group on how one gets authorization tokens to use with the VC
>>
>> HTTP API using GNAP might result in 1) a more focused discussion on that
>>
>> topic, and 2) a tighter scope for the VC HTTP API.
>>
>> Agreed that a tighter scope for this group will get results faster from
>> this group.
>>
>> Or a battle royal between OAuth2.0 the only "real" standard being discussed
>>
>> and the drafts for GNAP, OIDF-SIOP, ZCaps with HTTP Signatures and DIDComm
>>
>> hosted by the ccg?
>>
>> I expect this to turn into painful discussion for everyone involved. While I'm
>>
>> pretty sure Orie was joking about this option, -1 to the concept of comparing
>>
>> half-baked things against each other when we're trying to make some concrete
>>
>> decisions for the VC HTTP API.
>>
>> Agreed that this group needs uncontroversial, concrete results, not
>> design constraints imported from discusssions about standards or
>> technologies still in flux. The people volunteering to make this API
>> testable and get it taken seriously by today's vendors of production-grade
>> software are not volunteering to build for the future, they are
>> volunteering to build for their paying clients and customers.
>>
>> I'd prefer we either recommend OAuth2.0 and leave the door open to other ways
>>
>> to get an authorization token...
>>
>> +1 to this proposal.
>>
>> Everyone is unanimous in leaving the door open.  Parties asking for
>> multiple recommendations have not volunteered to do the extra work; we have
>> volunteers committed to doing the OAuth2 work.
>>
>> or we label the vc-http-api agnostic to
>>
>> authorization, and warn users that they will need to pair it with other specs
>>
>> to address security issues associated with exposing http endpoints on the
>>
>> internet.
>>
>> -1 to this proposal, we have kicked the "authorization can" down the road long
>>
>> enough... 18+ months now... let's not keep doing it when there is a fairly
>>
>> clear solution that all implementers seem to feel is a viable path forward as
>>
>> ONE option for authorization.
>>
>> -1 as well, ONE viable option is a stronger proposition than 0 viable
>> options, 1.5, or even 1.9.
>>
>> I would also love to just do Issue and PR review, and have less open
>>
>> discussion on calls, we seem to be discouraging asynchronous work, maybe we
>>
>> can limit open discussion to 50% of the call time?
>>
>> Yes, agreed. Perhaps we start out with PR review first -- because that rewards
>>
>> the thing we want to see, which is work being done.
>>
>>
>>
>> Then issue review, because it rewards the second thing we want to see -- which
>>
>> is asynchronous work.
>>
>> +1 discussing possible futures for this spec is taking up way too much
>> time.  Given the timeline for use-cases (and my own commitment to be at all
>> meetings until they are stabilized), I'd propose that Tuesday's agenda be:
>> 1.) PRs
>> 2.) Issues
>> 3.) Use-cases
>>
>> However, the Authorization discussion HAS been processing issues. Namely:
>>
>>
>>
>> https://github.com/w3c-ccg/vc-http-api/issues/108
>>
>> https://github.com/w3c-ccg/vc-http-api/issues/181
>>
>> https://github.com/w3c-ccg/vc-http-api/issues/187
>>
>>
>>
>> I try very hard not to do open discussion that's not driving toward some sort
>>
>> of PROPOSAL or POLL at the end. What I've been trying to do is to make sure
>>
>> that we get to at least one concrete proposal on each call. Sometimes you
>>
>> can't get there w/o discussion, which is the case with authorization... but to
>>
>> be clear, we have been processing registered issues, even though we haven't
>>
>> been calling them out by issue number.
>>
>> Thanks for that.  Manu, you've been doing great work moving us through
>> the issues as efficiently as possible given the lack of consensus on scope.
>>
>> -- manu
>>
>>
>>
>> -----------------
>> Juan Caballero
>> Research Lead,
>> Spherity <https://www.spherity.com> GmbH, Emil-Figge-Straße 80, 44227
>> Dortmund
>> <https://www.google.com/maps/search/Emil-Figge-Stra%C3%9Fe+80,+44227+Dortmund?entry=gmail&source=g>
>> Co-chair, DIF Healthcare Use-cases Discussion Group
>> <https://www.eventbrite.com/o/dif-healthcare-special-interest-group-31363301995>
>> and DIF Interoperability Working Group
>> <https://github.com/decentralized-identity/interoperability/blob/master/agenda.md>
>>
>> Berlin-based: +49 1573 5994525 Signal/whatsapp: +1 415-3101351
>>
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