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[MINUTES] W3C CCG Verifiable Credentials for Education Task Force Call - 2020-10-19 12pm ET

From: W3C CCG Chairs <w3c.ccg@gmail.com>
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2020 10:33:16 -0700 (PDT)
Message-ID: <5f9859dc.1c69fb81.31181.8281@mx.google.com>
Thanks to  for scribing this week! The minutes
for this week's CCG Verifiable Credentials for Education Task Force telecon are now available:


Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes.
Audio from the meeting is available as well (link provided below).

CCG Verifiable Credentials for Education Task Force Telecon Minutes for 2020-10-19

  Heather Vescent and Wayne Chang and Kim Hamilton Duffy
  Kim Hamilton Duffy, Leonard Rosenthal, Nate Otto, Jim Goodell, 
  Taylor Kendall, Kerri Lemoie, J. Philipp Schmidt, Jeanne 
  Kitchens, Simone Ravaoli

Kim Hamilton Duffy: Okay, IP note, anyone can participate in 
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  archived at our, our GitHub repo at this location.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: And we use IRC or yes we do use IRC to queue 
  speakers during the call. So we are still using IRC today so use 
  it if you can. It's an easier way to maintain order.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: But if you try to add yourself to the queue 
  in zoom over here, we'll, we'll try to figure it out. We'll try 
  to move you over to IRC.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Hey, so we use IRC Q, as well as to not 
  today, take minutes all attendees. She type presence plus in IRC 
  to get your name on the on the
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Attendee list and the transcript and in IRC 
  type q plus. That's the letter Q symbol plus new space to add 
  yourself to the queue with an optional reminder
Kim Hamilton Duffy: And see if you're not on IRC simply asked to 
  be put on the queue or you can type. So in the end, zoom message 
  will add you
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Please be brief. So the rest of the group get 
  a chance to chime in and you can always keep less again.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: And this meeting is held by voice, not by IRC 
  off topic IRC comments or subjects deletion from the record. Hey, 
  again, no scribe. Today we're trying out auto transcription
Kim Hamilton Duffy: OK, so now let's move on to introductions in 
Kim Hamilton Duffy: I think I see a few new aliases on the call.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Let me see actually first if if anyone would 
  like to introduce themselves add yourself to the queue. And I'll 
  call on you. Otherwise, I can start just calling on aliases that 
  look somewhat new
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Kristina, could I call a new to introduce 
Hi. Yeah. Can you hear me.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Yes. Please go ahead.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: We may have lost her um
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Let's see.
Yeah. Can you hear me.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Yes, we can.
Oh, sorry I'm against the video is a tree. Hi, my name is 
  Kristina. Um, I worked at Microsoft, where I'm working on the US 
  team identity standards and then you standards architect.
And they do work was several customers who were getting education 
  and credentials on space.
And also an aside, other side project my passion project at work 
  in an NGO where we do again educational credentials in Zambia 
  and, you know,
I've been super interested in joining this call, but I'm basing 
  to it's midnight here so you know it's not always the best call 
  time. But yeah, super happy and made it here today.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: So yes, thank you so much for joining us. It 
  is a very inconvenient time we're working on making some more 
  time zone.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Friendly options. So we'll stay, stay tuned 
  for that. Um, let's see, I think, I think Kostas has been here 
  before, but maybe I'll ask him to introduce himself Kostas
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Okay, we'll skip, actually. Anyone want to 
  reintroduce themselves before we move ahead.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: This can be useful if you're, you know, if 
  you switch jobs or you're focusing on a new area and you're 
  wanting to tell people about what you're working on.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Okay, let's just go ahead then.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Okay, so before we get into the main topic I 
  wanted to remind everyone that, you know, so the modeling 
  verifiable credentials for education.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Document that we've been working on reminder 
  that it moved over to spec text. So if you click that link, 
  you'll see the, the current work in progress. And you'll also see 
  there's a lot of
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Issues. So, actually.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Let me share my screen and forgetting that I 
  can do modern things now. So here is the the new spec and then we 
  were using just get hub to track everything. So all of the 
  comments that were sort of tracking issues in the Google Doc are 
  now over in GitHub.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: So that makes it easier to kind of keep a 
  threat of conversation and get them updated in the schema. So 
  please review the issues here, and comment on them. I'm going to 
  start doing that as well. I think you can sign up for 
  notifications on the repo just by watching it.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: If you're having problems. If you're not 
  familiar with using GitHub reach out to me, we might
Kim Hamilton Duffy: You know need to do a quick sort of tutorial 
  or something like that on a future call
Kim Hamilton Duffy: And if there's time at the end of this call, 
  we can start working through some of the issues, but otherwise we 
  will be coming back to this and future meetings so
Kim Hamilton Duffy: It's a good idea, though, to start reading 
  through the issues available and, you know, start writing any 
  concerns or thoughts that you might have.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Okay, let me stop sharing now. And with that, 
  I think we're ready to turn over to Leonard and so Leonard
Kim Hamilton Duffy: I will you know if you have slides to 
  present, things like that. You can use the screen share and again 
  I will be maintaining the queue. So in general, we asked people 
  to Q themselves so they have a concern.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: You know, our question or comment as they go 
  unless the speaker chooses otherwise. So just Q plus yourself to 
  IRC and we'll get to your questions at the end of it. With that, 
  I'll turn it over to Leonard
Leonard Rosenthal: Hey, thanks.
Leonard Rosenthal: Thanks everybody for joining today. Let me. So 
  what I'm going to talk about. And I'll tell you where I am who I 
  am and where I'm coming from. So
Leonard Rosenthal: I'm not a I'm not an educator. I actually am 
  not involved at all in the education space, but I do spend a lot 
  of time in the area of
Leonard Rosenthal: Verifiable what's now verifiable credentials. 
  But I think about it, not necessarily from the point of view of 
  the identity aspect or the credentialing aspect, but about the 
  data and the information on that you want to store that you want 
  to transport that you want to archive.
Leonard Rosenthal: And how that particular aspect plays out. And 
  so the reason I think about these things other than they're very 
  interesting is that my role at Adobe is I'm the Senior principal 
  architect for PDF and also for our content authenticity 
Leonard Rosenthal: And so these things overlap very well and also 
  aligned nicely with with the work that you folks are doing as we 
  think about this idea of what is the right container for our 
  information. How do we want to bundle things up. And again, pass 
  them around for various reasons.
Leonard Rosenthal: So obviously, you know, we're not talking 
  about anything new. This is not rocket science. We're not 
  inventing the wheel. We don't want to reinvent the wheel. The, 
  the idea of this portable database, if you will.
Leonard Rosenthal: Is not new. And so we've been looking at this 
  for quite a long time in the world in general.
Leonard Rosenthal: You think about this in the world of EMR 
  electronic medical records and the need to exchange things 
  between systems.
Leonard Rosenthal: Recording data dashboards. I'm going to use 
  one of my particular favorite use cases is around stem 
  publishing. So the ability to publish rich content.
Leonard Rosenthal: With math and science incorporated government 
  or industry data sets. I'll give some examples of that. And of 
  course, what we're here for today educational credentials or 
  credentials of various types.
Leonard Rosenthal: And at the end of the day, obviously, the 
  point here is we want to we want something that can be consumed, 
  both by a machine and by a human.
Leonard Rosenthal: Having to have two separate items means 
  they're going to get out of sync. You might lose one. Which one 
  is actually the real thing. So how do we bring these two things 
Leonard Rosenthal: And why PDF. So what, why are we even thinking 
  about this as an option. Well, it should be fairly obvious. 
  Everybody knows what it is. The internet knows what it is you can 
  pass them around in your email clients, put them on the web.
Leonard Rosenthal: You know it's been a scattered mind type for 
  25 years every modern iOS platform knows about it, you get a PDF 
  viewer baked into every OS you purchase today.
Leonard Rosenthal: I see you can't get away from it. It is 
  ubiquitous as the web and web browsers are, and we'll talk about 
  that momentarily. And it's also an open standard. It's been an 
  open standard since 2008 so over a decade now.
Leonard Rosenthal: And that means that you know we can leverage 
  it from other open standards so we don't have to worry about any 
  proprietary nature being provided here.
Leonard Rosenthal: Also want to introduce to you. For those of 
  you may be, may not be familiar. In addition to the whole PDF 
  standard, which we call ISO 32,000 that's the number at the ISO
Leonard Rosenthal: There's a number of what we call subset 
  standards, where we've taken the big PDF and we've reduced it 
  we've said, What are the core functionalities that are needed for 
  specific use cases. So the two I want to bring up one is PDF a 
  PDF for long term archiving.
Leonard Rosenthal: This is a standard that his name implies, is 
  how do I use PDF for storing documents long term. And in this 
  case, long term. It's not five or 10 years
Leonard Rosenthal: But we're thinking 50 years 100 years, have 
  you think about documents that need to be stored. So my two 
  favorite examples here in the United States, the
Leonard Rosenthal: National Archives are by law required to keep 
  documents until the end of the Republic. So with the assumption 
  that the Republic, the United States isn't going away anytime 
  soon. That's a fairly sizable lifespan.
Leonard Rosenthal: But it actually doesn't compare to the Nuclear 
  Regulatory Agency, which is required to keep documents for the 
  for one half of for the afterlife.
Leonard Rosenthal: Of each of the radioactive isotopes. So for 
  any of you who know your science, you're talking potentially 10s 
  of thousands of years. So we think real long term.
Leonard Rosenthal: The other thing, of course, it's extremely 
  important that I know many of you on the call are deeply involved 
  in is accessibility and so PDF UAE is the PDF standard for 
  ensuring universal accessibility.
Leonard Rosenthal: And these standards have been around quite a 
  long time and they are mandated by law, much like wake AG is 
  mandated so as PDF you a PDF also in over 50 countries and all of 
  the states here in the US.
Leonard Rosenthal: So fairly well known. If you're not familiar 
  with them to know. And obviously we're here as part of the W 
  three see. So let's talk about the open web.
Leonard Rosenthal: PDF is a part of the open web platform. It has 
  been part of the web for more than 15 years as I mentioned 
  before, it is natively supported by all major web browsers. And 
  it's also a
Leonard Rosenthal: Normative reference in the HTML5 
  specifications. So if you crack open that speck in your search 
  for PDF, you'll find that a couple of times.
Leonard Rosenthal: So it is part of the wet.
Leonard Rosenthal: And of course there are thousands of 
  independent implementations and this goes to the fact that it's 
  an open standard, whether you're an open source like commercial 
  you have your choices.
Leonard Rosenthal: So I mentioned. So that gives us your why are 
  we thinking about PDF. How does it fit into the ecosystems. There 
  are clay here.
Leonard Rosenthal: So this idea PDF as a container. This is not, 
  it was not something I necessarily I'm coming to you for the 
  first time with
Leonard Rosenthal: It's something I've been working on for quite 
  a long time. As you can see here, one of the first uses of this 
  was for the US Census data.
Leonard Rosenthal: That GPO the government printing or government 
  Publications Office here in the US started bundling the census 
  data inside of a PDFs in 2003 and then they proceed to digitally 
Leonard Rosenthal: Or certify that document, they really were at 
  the bleeding edge of this technology and have been doing it 
Leonard Rosenthal: The Brazilian government. I worked with also 
  in the mid 2000s, to ensure that all of their transcripts. So 
  here's an example where they take
Leonard Rosenthal: They recorded every one of their meetings in 
  an XML grammar that they define they take that XML file, it gets 
  embedded into a visual representation. That's the PDF
Leonard Rosenthal: Again they sign it. And this goes up on their 
  websites. So if you want to get any transcript from the Brazilian 
  government of any government meeting. That's how these things 
  have been distributed since 2008 on the EU patent office has been 
  doing something similar. Since 2012
Leonard Rosenthal: On perhaps the most recent set up things as 
  around the invoicing so in 2014 the German government created a 
  German standard called zero preferred
Leonard Rosenthal: The French followed suit. Although it took 
  much longer to get it out with something called factor X on both 
  of which align with the EU invoicing standard which is een 16 931
Leonard Rosenthal: And basically this is the same sorts of 
  things. I've been talking about, which is let's take an XML chunk 
  of XML data. And again, XML is not special, as you learn these 
  are just all folks that have chosen XML with their format.
Leonard Rosenthal: We take a chunk of XML. We put it inside of a 
  nowadays a PDF a format. So going back to that long term 
  capability. So we want to ensure that these invoices. In the case 
  of the EU and German and French standards will live for a long 
Leonard Rosenthal: So we're going to put that in there and now 
  we've got this long term archival document it meets all of the 
  mandates of the various countries, Germany, France and most 
  actually I believe all of you at this point.
Leonard Rosenthal: I'm now has PDF a mandated as well. And we get 
  this beautiful container of both human and machine readability. 
  All right.
Leonard Rosenthal: So these are great examples. How does this 
  apply to some of the things you folks are thinking about, well, I 
  was doing some research and apparently the folks at Open badge 
  factory had the same idea. So like I said, this is not new. I'm 
  not trying to, you know, give you anything new.
Leonard Rosenthal: So I found their web page.
Leonard Rosenthal: Where they talk about exactly what I am, which 
  is you start with an open portable format which supports rich 
  metadata digital signatures.
Leonard Rosenthal: You bake your badge into it and away you go. 
  Now, I couldn't find any details of how they're doing it so
Leonard Rosenthal: As I go through the rest of the presentation, 
  I'm going to talk about my ideas as to how I think it should be 
  done and why and the pros and the cons, but again, somebody else 
  has already started going down this path. And I think that's 
Leonard Rosenthal: And you can kind of think of this, although I 
  you know I think it's fairly obvious. If you're familiar with the 
  IO R le are rappers in your community. This is the reverse. In 
  that case,
Leonard Rosenthal: There you put a PDF inside of the JSON. Here 
  we're going to put that JSON or XML inside of the PDF. So all 
  we're doing is reversing. What is the container or the rapper 
  technology but same idea, the same principles. I'm sorry. Is 
  there a question. I'm happy to take it.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Um, I think someone just didn't meet 
  themselves. I'm going to go through and check for that. So, go 
  ahead. I'll see. I'm sure everything's muted.
Leonard Rosenthal: Right, no problem. Right. And we keep going.
Leonard Rosenthal: Alright, so
Leonard Rosenthal: Again, why are we doing this. So just like the 
  Dodge factory said PDF is a great format because
Leonard Rosenthal: Not only represents content that's what we all 
  know in and are familiar with it for, but what most people don't 
  know. And I'd like to spend some time really talking about
Leonard Rosenthal: Our this semantic nature PDF and the metadata 
  capabilities, a PDF, because that's really where we're going to 
  leverage to connect the semantics and the metadata information 
  coming from the BCS
Leonard Rosenthal: To the PDF content. And so why other people 
  thought of this before. Really, it's because people just don't 
  know what PDF can do. We're used to getting
Leonard Rosenthal: These very simple documents without structure 
  without metadata and we're just viewing them. Historically, we 
  would have printed them out.
Leonard Rosenthal: And then we sort of were done with them. We 
  just don't think about them because most people don't produce the 
  kinds of PDFs that we want to produce. So let's talk about what 
  we can do, when we do it right. So let's do that.
Leonard Rosenthal: One of the key things we want to start with is 
  the metadata platform that PDF leverages so this is also a 
  standard of its own. It's called SMP the extensible metadata 
  platform. So I so one 664
Leonard Rosenthal: It comes in both an XML serialization and a 
  JSON LD serialization, so it's a data. It's a single metadata 
  model. It's based on RDF it's compatible with RDF
Leonard Rosenthal: And we take that and again we can see realize 
  it either is XML or JSON LD, and it is doesn't matter the 
  serialization is irrelevant to the data model that share
Leonard Rosenthal: This same standard SMP, not only is used by 
  PDF, but it's also the standard for all common asset types used 
  on the web and in general today. So if you go look inside of a 
  JPEG or a pain or an MP4 file or, you know, add one app for 
  whatever your favorite
Leonard Rosenthal: Format is for images audio video 3D um it's 
  now part of GL TF. For example, which is the up and coming 3D 
  format standard
Leonard Rosenthal: Uses x m p for its metadata. So this is the 
  standard for asset and document metadata. I'm SVG, for that 
  matter, supports SNP
Leonard Rosenthal: As its metadata format, although it's not used 
  ritually in that world. So great format. It's indexed by the web 
  and by desktop search engines. Again, not only in PDF, but in 
  these other various formats.
Leonard Rosenthal: So we got a great standard to build on inside 
  a PDF SMP exists in two different locations conceptual one, is it 
  the document level. So I can say here's everything about the 
  document. Here's my ex MP for the document.
Leonard Rosenthal: Go. I can also attach it directly to 
  individual objects. So this comes in handy when you think about, 
  for example, and we'll talk about this combining multiple 
  documents together or perhaps putting
Leonard Rosenthal: Images are multiple images on a page or across 
  the document or each one of those images, each one of those 
  objects, each one of those pages has their own SMP associated 
  with it.
Leonard Rosenthal: And that gets carried along throughout the 
  process. So we don't necessarily have to worry about one and only 
  one chunk of metadata. We have it bound to each individual item.
Leonard Rosenthal: And that's not unlike, of course, how you want 
  it on an HTML page connect schema.org information to individual 
  objects within the HTML page. So very similar concepts.
Leonard Rosenthal: Apply here only differences. Again, we've 
  standardized on this SMP I've also been working so they're just 
  mentioned schema.org I've been working for the last few months.
Leonard Rosenthal: With the folks@schema.org because we now have 
  this JSON LD serialization, we're trying to coordinate how we 
  take various schema.org schemas and properly serialized them 
  index empty.
Leonard Rosenthal: I'll point out, and it's working, it's going 
  along, admittedly, slowly. The biggest problem we're running into 
  just as an FYI.
Leonard Rosenthal: Is that even though it's called schema.org 
  there actually are no schema files for any of the data that's up 
  there. So whereas for x m p we have schemas for everything.
Leonard Rosenthal: We don't have that from schema.org so we're 
  trying to figure out how we utilize these non machine readable 
  descriptions of the various schemas and how we can apply them in 
  this very machine readable fashion so SMP the core metadata 
  within PDF
Leonard Rosenthal: Um, I talked about structure and semantics. So 
  this is something, again, most people don't think about but PDF 
  has the concept of logical structure and structural semantics.
Leonard Rosenthal: And if you look at them. We call them tags. If 
  you look at them they map really nicely to HTML tags and that's 
  by design.
Leonard Rosenthal: This goes back to, we did this actually back 
  in the HTML three days just came out in 2001 and it's evolved 
  since and semantics don't change, there are simply course 
  semantics paragraph headings list tables, tables of contents. We 
  do a few things that
Leonard Rosenthal: We've aligned nicely with the ARIA D pub work 
  so on both ways. Ra di pub reflects some of the semantics that we 
  have in PDF that weren't in HTML.
Leonard Rosenthal: And we've also gone the other way. So we 
  actually support ARIA D pop as structural elements as structural 
  elements within PDF
Leonard Rosenthal: So you can leverage some of those as well. So 
  this way you have the semantics that you can express in your web 
  content. You can also express directly and equivalent Lee in your 
  PDF content.
Leonard Rosenthal: And so there's this really nice model. One of 
  the things that we allow in PDF that I know is not a always 
  supported in the HTML world, but we think is extremely important, 
  especially as we think about specific use cases like we think 
  about education.
Leonard Rosenthal: And the like sometimes you want custom tags. 
  You just need them. Um, you need to be able to reflect your own 
  things and then map them accordingly. So here's a couple of 
Leonard Rosenthal: For example, I want to call this a diagram or 
  I want to call this a Drop Cap, because that's semantically 
  really what it is, but under the hood. It's a figure
Leonard Rosenthal: So that's okay um footnotes and then notes, of 
  course, a really good example. That's something where r e a d pop 
  has certainly addressed some of the concerns.
Leonard Rosenthal: And the list goes on anything that you want to 
  address through custom
Leonard Rosenthal: Tags. You can do that in the map them 
  equivalent Lee and that's how for example, we were able to do and 
  I'll refer back to our a deep up and already itself.
Leonard Rosenthal: So in PDF, the ARIA tags are custom tags set 
  because they're not part of the core PDF Tag Set, but that's okay 
  because again we can utilize custom tags and therefore 
  incorporate any of these additional things that we want.
Leonard Rosenthal: And this would also potentially leverage if we 
  needed one specific to the educational community.
Leonard Rosenthal: So how does this play out. So I apologize. I 
  just did not. I didn't have time to actually redo some of my 
  examples with a specific in this case.
Leonard Rosenthal: With a specific educational credential, but 
  I'm hoping that you'll get the idea from from my previous stem 
  presentation samples.
Leonard Rosenthal: So the idea here is, again, we have these tags 
  on the lap. And the idea here is to point out that the pieces of 
  the document. Go to the tags. So, some of them are obvious like 
  headers and paragraphs, but
Leonard Rosenthal: Tables figures those things kind of obvious 
  this, you know, not a big deal to should be what we think of as 
  semantic mappings.
Leonard Rosenthal: Where it becomes interesting though is when we 
  take this the next step, and that is the PDF as a container which 
  is again where we're going for here.
Leonard Rosenthal: I can embed any type of file any type of data 
  that I want in here. So here we see an example or I have a bunch 
  of XML files. I have some SVG files. I have some CSV files 
  embedded into this PDF
Leonard Rosenthal: But just the during bed, it is irrelevant. 
  It's that's not as important as the fact that they are connected 
  directly to
Leonard Rosenthal: The visual and semantic elements so that table 
  of data is directly connected to the CSV file that represents the 
  data. So not only do I have that visual representation, but I 
  have the actual data that most likely created that table, or at 
  least represents that table.
Leonard Rosenthal: In the case of the math and now at the math at 
  the bottom. I have the math ML embedded directly into the PDF. So 
  again, not only do I have visual representations, but I have full 
  semantic representations
Leonard Rosenthal: In other open standards tightly bound, so I 
  know exactly as I walked through the PDF, as I look at each of 
  the components. I know what things are connected to what and one 
  of the advantages of
Leonard Rosenthal: That is you put
Leonard Rosenthal: This together. You put together the common 
  semantics with HTML, the ability to bind these other standards to 
  the individual elements.
Leonard Rosenthal: Then we now have a standard for what's called 
  deriving HTML. And what this means is that rather than having to 
  do arbitrary conversions of this stuff and getting non 
  deterministic results.
Leonard Rosenthal: I can take a PDF. I run it through this well 
  defined standardized algorithm. And I get HTML out in a 
  deterministic manner. In fact it round trips, both ways. So now I 
  can go PDF HTML. HTML to PDF maintaining the full semantics.
Leonard Rosenthal: Including additional attributes. So for 
  example, if you look down. You see the language. So language 
  tags, for example, those are things that were present on the on 
  our semantic elements. Those come into the HTML.
Leonard Rosenthal: On the figure. If you look down at the figure, 
  you'll see things like placements. This one is obviously a bad 
  example from an accessibility standpoint, it doesn't have all 
  text associated with it. But that of course would come over
Leonard Rosenthal: You'll see them in the case of the image, 
  rather than bringing over a raster image because I had the SVG, I 
  can just bring over the SVG.
Leonard Rosenthal: Same thing with math. I know I can bring the 
  math. I know over and so I'm no longer bound by this, you know, 
  people describe PDF sometimes as we're data goes to die.
Leonard Rosenthal: That's because you just don't know what's in 
  there, you know, and as you see none of this is new. This is not 
  stuff that just showed up in PDF yesterday.
Leonard Rosenthal: All of these are things that have been there 
  for years, decades. In some cases, they're just not leveraged and 
  what we're trying. One of the things that
Leonard Rosenthal: I've been trying to do for many years, and 
  there are others amongst us doing this is again going out there 
  and talking about what we can do and talking to communities like 
  yourselves about how to leverage it so
Leonard Rosenthal: You know, as I mentioned, even even individual 
  attributes, I talked about these are deeper even things like 
  already a fan. So, for example,
Leonard Rosenthal: Here on the right is what the Wikipedia page 
  for RDF a looks like it even has an exhibit a sample that's the 
  actual sample off the page.
Leonard Rosenthal: You can see that the PDF equivalent, as I 
  mentioned, I can
Leonard Rosenthal: Go.
Leonard Rosenthal: Bi directionally and maintain all of those 
  semantics. Even the RDF so you can see that even the individual 
  RDF a items. The fo as properties.
Leonard Rosenthal: The relationships. Everything directly out of 
  the HTML into the individual semantic components of the PDF one 
  to one mapping
Leonard Rosenthal: So very, very huge opportunities here for how 
  you want to express all of your information and encode it and 
  we'll talk about that. So I really just wanted to set the stage 
  for all of these things that are possible based on these PDF 
  technologies that most people are not aware
Leonard Rosenthal: One more. We were talking about this is of 
  course very big in the open data and linked data community is 
Leonard Rosenthal: You don't just want to have everything 
  internally. So you can link, of course, both into a PDF out of a 
  PDF and within a PDF
Leonard Rosenthal: I'm all using the common models. So you can do 
  this either using native PDF linking capabilities or
Leonard Rosenthal: We fully support you. Our eyes with fragment 
  identifiers and that's codified in RFC 8118 and replicated in the 
  ISO 30,000 standard as well. You can point to pages. That's old 
Leonard Rosenthal: But you can also point to individual 
  structural elements. So if you want to link directly to a table 
  or a cell of a table or to a figure
Leonard Rosenthal: On you can do all of that. You can also point 
  to the embedded files themselves. So if you wanted to link all 
  the way into, say the JSON. The represents your credential that's 
  embedded in a PDF. The I posted on the site somewhere.
Leonard Rosenthal: No problem that is fully supported in the 
  fragment identifiers
Leonard Rosenthal: And so that, again, you can host that PDF with 
  your embedded JSON and the PDF visibility, but have the links, 
  not just to the PDF that's nice.
Leonard Rosenthal: But I actually want links into the PDF and 
  into its content and into its semantics and into that JSON 
  embedded data. For example, representing the credentials.
Leonard Rosenthal: And so you can, and that also works. Of 
  course, the other way around. If you want a bridge from your 
  embedded data to your content. Content to the embedded data and 
  back and forth so very, very rich models for Lincoln as well. I 
  mean all standards based
Leonard Rosenthal: And of course, one last set of things we want 
  to talk about is, and I mentioned this earlier digital 
Leonard Rosenthal: PDF digital signatures are standardized both 
  at ISO and 1453 and with Etsy for AI this and what's called the 
  pod as standards. So you may be familiar with the other artists 
  standards caught as and shot as or Katie's and GDS depending on 
  where you come from.
Leonard Rosenthal: Pot is is the PDF version of that. It's been 
  an Etsy standard for almost 15 years now. I think it's been that 
  long since we we started that process. So quite a while.
Leonard Rosenthal: And all of the things that one would expect to 
  see in the digital signature standards so
Leonard Rosenthal: We have approval signatures. We have 
  certifying signatures. We have cereal signatures time stamping 
  capabilities and again all standardized with the various
Leonard Rosenthal: Organizations that one would expect. So this 
  not gets us take that and put the signature put the binding 
  around it to ensure not only who did it come from, but whether or 
  not it was campus.
Leonard Rosenthal: PDF does also support security encryption and 
  DRM but I'm not going to say much about that. I know many people 
  have feelings, one way or the other. So we'll ignore the 
  political aspects of that and just say it's there.
Leonard Rosenthal: One other aspect which is not a feature a PDF, 
  but I wanted to talk about, because I do think that in the 
  aspects of education, as I think about at least
Leonard Rosenthal: How I see I'm predict educational credentials 
  being used to me. One of the things that is a key feature PDF 
  that I think will be a big when
Leonard Rosenthal: I'm in the educational community's ability to 
  aggregate your credentials together. So I think about this, for 
Leonard Rosenthal: As one of my kids is putting their resume 
  together. In addition to having their resume in that same PDF, 
  they could bundle in
Leonard Rosenthal: There the crypto their credentials from their 
  university. They can bundle in the credentials from the 
  individual Coursera or whatever classes that they've taken and 
  then that goes along as part of their resume packet
Leonard Rosenthal: And PDF that's just logical everybody thinks 
  about the ability to do that. They do it almost without thinking 
  it's it's really one of the most common operations done
Leonard Rosenthal: And so to me that ability to do that to create 
  that custom CV your resume using off the shelf tools. We don't 
  need a custom service. We don't need a, you know,
Leonard Rosenthal: I have to go to a specific place if I have my 
  PDF of my credentials, which hopefully I do. That's part of being 
  able to have them portable that I can store them. I can keep 
  control over them.
Leonard Rosenthal: And I can bundle them together in the way that 
  I see fit and distribute them as I need to.
Leonard Rosenthal: That's a big wind of this whole open air. 
  Whole idea of open credentials and sharing that information on in 
  relevant manner. So I wanted to point that out.
Leonard Rosenthal: To me, at least, and you guys may tell me I'm 
  completely crazy, but to me. I think that's a great use case for 
  the use of PDF, especially for VC and education credentials.
Leonard Rosenthal: Okay.
Leonard Rosenthal: So how do we get there.
Leonard Rosenthal: Can we just stop in any questions so far. I do 
  want to make sure everybody is okay on the technologies and stuff 
  before we sort of I put them together into what I think is a 
  least a couple of good suggestions.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Yes, thank you. This is great. And actually 
  we do have someone on the queue. I'm sorry my cutie and Nate 
Nate Otto: Hey, thanks. Um, some really interesting stuff in this 
  presentation and I mainly so I'm pretty familiar with the open 
  badge factory implementation.
Nate Otto: The Open Badges work group to review it and update the 
  validator to be able to accept that format for a
Nate Otto: Container for Open Badges data. In addition to SVG and 
  the N G which are currently supported, but their approach really 
  has a separation between the data that is
Nate Otto: The Open Badges actual metadata and the visual 
  presentation Data, whereas a lot of the slides that you've been 
  showing here really shows that there are potential possibilities 
  for actually presenting the verifiable credential data in the 
  visual format and not just using the
Nate Otto: The PDF as a transmission format essentially for the 
  real data. In the case where like open badge factory does where 
  they're not actually displaying the credential data there. 
  They're just packaging and in there in the metadata.
Nate Otto: I'm struggling to understand like
Nate Otto: Why it's useful to try and go further and display the 
  actual data on that is in the VC in the human readable.
Nate Otto: Content of the document. Is it the same data or are 
  you just read capitulating the data is sort of my main question 
  to you.
Leonard Rosenthal: Oh, such as a question. Yeah, it's not so I 
  would say. And actually, all I have an example of
Leonard Rosenthal: Open Badges how for example i would i again i 
  didn't see their specification. But if I were doing Open Badges 
  for PDF how I would do it. So I'll actually show that. Next, I 
  think, is my next slide.
Leonard Rosenthal: Um, but to the question. It's not the same 
  data. There's data bundled in JSON or XML. There's data on the 
  PDF side so that is two separate pieces of data, but they can be 
  again tightly bound
Leonard Rosenthal: To each other. And the reason they're not the 
  same data, you know, there's pros and cons to that one side says 
  well you edit one you want the other edited, but I look at 
  something, especially in this particular context. These are not 
  documents, you're going to edit.
Leonard Rosenthal: Their somebody is delivering to you in most 
  cases you completed a course you graduated from university. 
  Here's your diploma.
Leonard Rosenthal: Type of thing. Here's your, your certificate 
  in editing it would be bad. And that's part of why we want to 
  sign these things. So the fact that it's two pieces of data. I 
  don't think it's a big deal because it's
Leonard Rosenthal: Not to be edited, but what you want to do 
  though is connect the dots and the reason to connect the dots.
Leonard Rosenthal: Is for these downstream workflows. So for 
  example, the aggregation workflow case I gave you before. If I 
  want to put
Leonard Rosenthal: Up. I have three or four badges and I want to 
  put them all. I want to aggregate them onto a single page. So for 
  example, I want to go into
Leonard Rosenthal: Google Docs or, you know, pick Apple pages or 
  whatever it is. And I want to place, you know, for these badges 
  on a page with a nice big title you know my accomplishments for 
Leonard Rosenthal: I need to be able to do that. And then when I 
  produce the new PDF out of that I need those badge date that 
  badge dated go with it and
Leonard Rosenthal: You know, in a sense, that's what you 
  accomplish with the pinion bedding and the SVG embedding today or 
  baking to use your term in Open Badges
Leonard Rosenthal: We need to be able to do that same thing in 
  PDF. So when I place those PDFs on another page and I produce 
  another PDF. I needed to go with it.
Leonard Rosenthal: And that works. If it's the whole thing. But 
  now. Okay, so that's easy if each of those badges was individual 
  now I've got a document which has four badges on it to follow my 
  example, each badge with the big data.
Leonard Rosenthal: Now I need to take one of those out for some 
  reason. Again, I need. It's not the whole PDF. I need to stay 
  with the badge so
Leonard Rosenthal: Same model, I think, you know, it's not a 
  thing. It's the same model that you want to accomplish with those 
  other formats, we want to do with PDF
Leonard Rosenthal: Badges tougher is we'll see better not tougher 
  badges is, I hate to say this less interesting because it's just 
  a picture or an image of figure
Leonard Rosenthal: But when we think about something like and I 
  apologize. Actually, this is the one example I wanted to do and I 
  just did not get a chance to do it with other things going on.
Leonard Rosenthal: Um, you think about a diploma. To me, the 
  diplomas and more interesting case because it's got text. It's 
  got connection information to the university. It's got all of 
  these other visual elements.
Leonard Rosenthal: On the page, other than just a simple picture. 
  So I think that's where it becomes more interesting than
Nate Otto: Just a simple picture.
Nate Otto: Yeah. If you've read Open Badges at all.
Leonard Rosenthal: Sorry, and visual. I'm sorry. I apologize. I 
  didn't mean to.
Leonard Rosenthal: Denigrate my point was it at least the the 
  examples that I've seen. And I said, All I've done is read the 
  papers and the pages.
Leonard Rosenthal: They're usually some sort of visual graphic. 
  It's not like a diploma wouldn't normally be used as a badge, but 
  I could please tell me I'm wrong, like I said, it's not my area.
Nate Otto: Okay.
Leonard Rosenthal: Great. Good to know. Thank you. I appreciate 
  that correction.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: We don't have anyone on the queue. So I'd 
  like to go ahead and
Leonard Rosenthal: Go with the rest. Absolutely. Alrighty. Okay, 
  so, um, we talked through this. The whole idea is let's not 
  reinvent the wheel.
Leonard Rosenthal: Okay, I think I made that point clear. So 
  let's actually talk about how we might not reinvent that wheel so
Leonard Rosenthal: I actually went, as I said, I thought I would 
  try to use some existing examples.
Leonard Rosenthal: So the one I did get through was. I thought I 
  would redo, at least in my mind, the 3D print master example from 
  the Open Badges version to specification. So I picked the graphic 
  of my own because there wasn't a graphic provided so I grabbed 
  the graphic.
Leonard Rosenthal: I took the JSON right out of that particular 
  document and I embedded it into the PDF. So this is what we've 
  been talking about before. I have an embedded JSON.
Leonard Rosenthal: I've connected that as I mentioned before, 
  directly to that image so that images has directly bound to it 
  that JSON and PDF binding terms. Okay.
Leonard Rosenthal: The other thing I've done is I've given it a 
  relationship. So in PDF terms when you attach something, you have 
  the option of giving it a relationship. Why did you attach it
Leonard Rosenthal: And so in this case I gave it a customer 
  relationship. So I wanted anybody coming along later either a 
  human or machine to understand what the point of this embedding 
  was, why did I bother doing it.
Leonard Rosenthal: So in this case I gave it a. I said, You know 
  what, it's a VC egg credential. So the, the four characters and 
  the underscores is just PDF
Leonard Rosenthal: Syntax that's a requirement for custom data is 
  you have to prefix customer information with a prefix there so
Leonard Rosenthal: I picked VC D. I thought that was a good 
  choice. And then this is the credential. So again, it can be 
  anything you want. I just pick something to to represent it. And 
  the point is now anybody or any machine coming to this.
Leonard Rosenthal: Knows exactly what this data is what it 
  represents. And how it's found. Um, the other thing I could have 
  done and I didn't
Leonard Rosenthal: But, and would have been very easy as I also 
  could have added the schema, so I couldn't or set of schema. So I 
  could have directly embedded all of the necessary schemas, the 
  JSON LD context files.
Leonard Rosenthal: Here into the PDF and we already have a 
  standard relationship type, which is schema. So I kind of put in 
  all the schemas.
Leonard Rosenthal: And marked all of them as schemas as well. And 
  then it would have been a completely self contained
Leonard Rosenthal: PDF that wouldn't even even, even for the 
  purposes of resolving the app contacts in the JSON LD, we 
  wouldn't have had to go on out for any external reference
Leonard Rosenthal: So again, I didn't do that. In this example, 
  but it's certainly something one could do. So what are the 
  advantages of this approach, as I mentioned, it's compatible with 
  the aggregation workflows that I talked about earlier. I think 
  that's extremely important.
Leonard Rosenthal: And then, the fact is that it's searchable by 
  PDF tools. So today, PDF tools, you know, your viewers your 
  browser will search inside of attachments
Leonard Rosenthal: Unfortunately, it's not a future of web search 
  engines. It's something I've been trying to get Google and Bing 
  and others to support for years and and I'm hoping that
Leonard Rosenthal: Someday, that they will do that. I think we 
  need a good use case. And maybe this is one of them to get them 
  the web search engines to start looking in PDF attachment. So a
Leonard Rosenthal: Lot of great benefits to doing this approach, 
  but I wanted to make sure you understood. It's not 100% perfect 
  that does have potential downsides, again depending on what your 
  pros and cons, what you're looking for, as your requirements.
Leonard Rosenthal: So, the alternative is to put it all inside of 
  the X MP, so we can take it and we can embed it either into the 
  document either into the document level SMP or into the
Leonard Rosenthal: Individual object level SMP, we can do that 
  either as a single see data block. In fact, if you look at, at 
  some of
Leonard Rosenthal: The ways that some people embedded. For 
  example, if you look at the SVG making spec for Open Badges. 
  That's how they put the JSON in desk VJ
Leonard Rosenthal: Absolutely nothing wrong with that. If you're 
  starting with XML data. For example, you might, however, want to 
  simply incorporate that into the XML of the SNP, you would have 
  to do a little bit of transcoding
Leonard Rosenthal: If you can't use it. Exactly. Because you have 
  to comply with the RDF syntax, but it's not a huge lift, Oregon. 
  You could also do that same see data block, even for XML data 
  wouldn't be a big lift. I prefer the latter. And part of the 
  reason for that is going to
Leonard Rosenthal: That web search if your goal is to get this 
  searchable and index the BI Desktop and web search engines.
Leonard Rosenthal: Then you want it, then you don't want it in a 
  big see data blog because they're not going to search it index 
  that but if you've got to properly transcoding into the SNP, then 
  you'll get that
Leonard Rosenthal: Automatically by the search engines on the 
  other thing thats related here is there's an open issue.
Leonard Rosenthal: With the WG on trying to expose X MP directly 
  to the browser and use your agents and even to the JavaScript.
Leonard Rosenthal: And so if this if we can get support for that 
  particular issue and get that adopted then having this 
  information in the SNP also means that your breath. You can write 
  scripts and do everything directly in your pages to actually 
  build on that embedded data.
Leonard Rosenthal: And as I mentioned before that now works, not 
  only with this model of putting it into the SMP not only works 
  for PDF. But you can do the exact same model, the exact same 
  serialisations for again pick your favorite asset format jpg ping 
  web P, etc, etc.
Leonard Rosenthal: And that way you got one model one approach, 
  regardless of format. So rather than having to do something 
  different for paying something different brands VG something 
  different for PDF one model fits all.
Leonard Rosenthal: The other advantage of that is. And again, 
  this is why we're trying to get it. We're starting to see this 
  already happened. It's been happening on the web. As I mentioned 
  in search engines for decades.
Leonard Rosenthal: But now we're starting to see other people 
  expose it and the most recent one is Google image search
Leonard Rosenthal: So before the data was indexed by Google image 
  search. So you could search from the various things. But Google 
  didn't expose any of that information and they just started doing 
  that recently.
Leonard Rosenthal: With their new license double images feature. 
  So now if in this case if your image had license data they 
  displayed in Google image search so
Leonard Rosenthal: In the future, the more information we can get 
  out there and standardized formats like this and we can start to 
  get the search engines, the browsers to understand it and to 
  expose it
Leonard Rosenthal: Then we can continue to build on that and 
  we're, again, we're not creating anything new. We're leveraging a 
  set of existing open standards.
Leonard Rosenthal: We're just evolving that and trying to connect 
  the dots, really, we got the standard over here and the standard 
  over here. We just wanted to, to talk to each other.
Leonard Rosenthal: We can really build up this ecosystem around 
  embedding this information into arbitrary asset types that are 
  all part of the open web platform.
Leonard Rosenthal: The only downside today. So this is great. And 
  I believe read I truly believe that these are the directions and 
  i and i like i said I'm pushing a lot of these myself and various 
  other groups.
Leonard Rosenthal: The one downside to this is today, it makes 
  aggregation harder. So we go back to the aggregation use case.
Leonard Rosenthal: It's not impossible. It's just a little more 
  difficult. And so there would be some work that would have to be 
Leonard Rosenthal: Honestly, in the PDF side specifically because 
  that's what we're talking about aggregation to just make 
  aggregation more aware of this particular scenario but that's 
  actually easy to do.
Leonard Rosenthal: It's not rocket science. We could actually 
  make those changes into the PDF specification going forward.
Leonard Rosenthal: And then we would get all of the advantages 
  and none of the disadvantages. And so, you know, directionally. I 
  think this is something that, as I said I wanted to push. I 
  wanted to put forward and and the pros and the cons accordingly.
Leonard Rosenthal: So that's what I wanted to talk about. I 
  really wanted to just give you that lay of the land for PDF and 
  and how you know I see it fitting into your ecosystem. Again, I, 
  I'm a
Leonard Rosenthal: I'm a guest here. I know you're I know, as I 
  said, education is not my area, but I'd like to think the other 
  areas are
Leonard Rosenthal: So hopefully this is giving you guys some some 
  thoughts and I look forward to working with you and hopefully 
  trying to make some more. All of this a reality.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Thank you so much letter that was very 
Kim Hamilton Duffy: I actually had myself on the queue and feel 
  free to add yourself to the queue to ask any questions so I you
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Were talking about digital signatures are 
  starting to one thing I wanted to ask about their just mostly in 
  terms of my lack of awareness of, you know, what's being done in 
  PDF. So okay, so
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Let me, let me walk through my reasoning so 
  naive Lee, it seemed like you know in terms of what verifiable 
  credentials support right now, in theory, you could just, you 
  know, sign a verifiable credential embed that in a PDF
Kim Hamilton Duffy: But that's, that's a limited that's some 
  value but you know there's value in having a signature on the 
  whole PDF document. Right, so that gives additional
Kim Hamilton Duffy: You know tamper resistance properties to the 
  whole package. Now, that was the area where historically, I was 
  unsure about like, which ones were sort of more
Kim Hamilton Duffy: You know, centralized solutions like our 
  flexible digital signature formats supported and what would it 
  take for those to sort of be compatible with
Kim Hamilton Duffy: You know the verifiable financial data model. 
  I think that the X MP option to that you described at the end 
  might be the the clearest path for compatibility with the 
  verifiable credentials data model as it exists right now. I was 
  just curious for your thoughts on that though.
Leonard Rosenthal: So that the answer is that it is, you know, 
  the there's nothing about the the VC data model that is 
  incompatible with your PDF, the PDF signature model, the only
Leonard Rosenthal: I would say the only difference is that PDF 
  supports a I'll say more limited set of signature algorithms. And 
  that's because again because PDF has to serve.
Leonard Rosenthal: For the longer term, we don't just adopt the 
  latest and greatest
Leonard Rosenthal: We take a very long term view of any 
  technology that we adopt and so the signature technologies in use 
  today and PDF or the classical one. So this is traditional you 
  know RSA public key, it's elliptic curve cryptography.
Leonard Rosenthal: All of which are great well established and 
  again internationally standardized algorithms.
Leonard Rosenthal: A lot of the newer blockchain connected, if 
  you will. Algorithms are not supported because again, they're 
  just newer they haven't gone through the same levels of adoption 
  and international standardization.
Leonard Rosenthal: On that the others have. And so that's why 
  we've chosen the ones we've had, but to that end I will say that 
  one of the things that I'm working on. So I mentioned these
Leonard Rosenthal: The Etsy jada's standards, the advanced 
  signature standards from Etsy. One of the things that I've been 
  working on is a job. So in order to align
Leonard Rosenthal: The current support for J WT and AWS in the 
  seas and the JSON based serialization of the that model you need 
  an equivalent in JSON, if you're going to do signatures in the 
Leonard Rosenthal: Or you can't do it without it has to comply 
  with these standards. So I've been working
Leonard Rosenthal: As a member of axiom and and the, you know, VC 
  community to connect those dots and to get that Jada standards. 
  That's in process right now.
Leonard Rosenthal: And that, again, they're all aligned. It's 
  really just about how do you put it, is it in a PDF is it in a 
  CMS is it in JSON otherwise all the signature bits are the same. 
  Does that make sense.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Yes. And in fact, I'm so that's good to hear 
  that you are already working on that because that is the
Kim Hamilton Duffy: I'm not pronouncing is Jada Jada is the x ad 
  S one, because we had identified that in this group as the 
  fastest fastest path to allow verifiable.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: How you say to support an addendum to the 
  verifiable financial data model that would allow use of LD 
  signatures, you know, based on XML serialization verifiable 
  credentials. So I think we should sync with you on that because 
  we're very interested in that approach.
Leonard Rosenthal: Absolutely, I'm happy to have a conversation 
  about this and again using PDF and pot is get you that same 
  result as well. So this is where you could even
Leonard Rosenthal: Take the JSON today, put it inside of the PDF 
  sign the PDF with pot as and you get the same alignment and 
  benefits. But yeah, we can all because the shot as hot as and and 
  Jada is coming up are all aligned. It all works. Very nice. Yeah, 
  happy to have those conversations
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Great. And we have one more person in the 
  queue. Chris when you're up.
I Kim thanks and Thanks Linda for presenting this. This is really 
  good to see. I wanted to follow up on what Kim said
Only because I'm not familiar with it. Can you bring your own 
  keys to a PDF signature. For instance, you know, a Fido to Yuba 
  key type of situation or, you know, smart card Estonian ID type 
  of signature and still have a PDF format.
Leonard Rosenthal: Yeah, yeah. The keys can come from anywhere. 
  We don't the format doesn't care where the keys come from. It's 
  simply the algorithms that you use, along with the keys and in 
  some cases those keys specify the algorithms.
Leonard Rosenthal: So yeah, not a problem at all. In fact, the 
  European smart cards, for example, European ID cards.
Leonard Rosenthal: Government US government cards, all the news 
  for decades. Yes. No problems takes worse. No, good question.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Well, we don't have any Well anyone else on 
  the queue. So I think I'd seen a question about advancing the 
  work items on the spec. So in the couple minutes we have left 
  will turn to that and thank you again. Leonard. This was 
  incredibly useful and looking forward to continuing the 
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Um, so yes, Nate. I saw you in in IRC talking 
  about the VC do models spec and you know how we can use the 
  GitHub repo to advance issues. So yeah, just I'll cue up since 
  we're limited on time. If there's any specific thing you wanted 
  to discuss
Nate Otto: Sure. And apologies if my internet connection is a bit 
Nate Otto: And also Thanks Linda for a great presentation. The so 
  there's a bunch of issues on there. I'll put a link to the issues 
  page and some of them. I see you've created Kim as discussion 
  threads for various different
Nate Otto: Sections of the document, and I would like to try to 
  make some good progress over the next few weeks couple meetings 
  where we
Nate Otto: Advance. Some of these different things. One of the, 
  the efforts that we've been talking about his use of the 
  schema.org has credential property. There is a proposal to add 
  has performed. I'd like to
Nate Otto: Have that flushed out, get some more justification and 
  like, what is it that we're going to put into a schema.org pull 
  request, what in the schema.org world is the object of that.
Nate Otto: That claim and then I just wanted to point out 
  everyone else to the fact that there are discussion threads. 
  Maybe we can make some progress by
Nate Otto: Having some good discussion about these different 
  facets of the documents so that we can take the next steps on 
  each of these things and also start looking across the different 
  examples, a little bit better at. See if there's consistent 
  models that we can use.
Kim Hamilton Duffy: Thank you need. Thanks for drawing attention 
  to that. Yes, I am hoping people will start taking a look. Start 
  thinking about these, we will be coming back to these in future 
  meetings and then also
Kim Hamilton Duffy: If there's interest, we certainly can meet 
  outside of this ongoing meeting to just have working sessions on 
  those. So yeah, we'll come back to that. And we're at time. Thank 
  you so much everyone and thanks again Leonard for the great 
  presentation. Okay. Have a good week. Everyone
Received on Tuesday, 27 October 2020 17:33:38 UTC

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