Re: Zoom is shite

Yancy, thanks for your thoughts. Would you be open to helping us conduct a more inclusive community survey to better understand how people feel about this overall, other than the handful of respondents to this thread? We would also welcome your contributions in other areas of the community such as work items or scribing if it’s of interest to you.

Best,
- Wayne

On Tue, Oct 27, 2020, at 6:08 AM, Yancy wrote:
> The majority of responses from community and _not_ from leadership have been in favor of _not_ using Zoom.  I think the current work done by volunteers to deploy the current Jitsi solution is awesome, and I hope the spirit will not be lost by "temporarily" switching back to Zoom.

> -Yancy

> On 10/26/20 4:55 PM, Wayne Chang wrote:
>> Of course, we appreciate the feedback--it's one of our core instincts to prefer an open and community-driven solution where possible. I must also acknowledge the previous point around our heavy reliance on other proprietary and centrally controlled services such as GitHub, which is currently struggling with DCMA takedowns of projects such as youtube-dl, and has drawn little protest from the community to date. We have to tread a fine line between what's idealistic and what's practical.
>> 
>> Therefore, the next meeting will be on Zoom to ensure we have a smooth discussion, just as the majority of the current W3C TPAC meetings are being held, and just as the DID WG conducts their sessions. You can join with a web browser or dial-in with a phone number; you needn't install client software.
>> 
>> That said, we haven't jettisoned the immense amount of accomplished Jitsi work and I personally view it as an important community effort, due to its aforementioned open nature and tight integration with our IRC bot. The server is alive and well at https://meet.w3c-ccg.org/, and volunteers are indeed investigating compatibility with the latest changes in Chrome. These things just take time, and folks do have day jobs. If the community would like to give it another run after these changes are in, I would be delighted to support this effort.
>> 
>> I also welcome any proposals of services that meet our practicality requirements, including other such open conferencing systems or a Jitsi support contract. However, before we spout out hasty suggestions such as $product_name, I would request that they are first given some thought on the fit within our requirements around recordings/notes publishing/bot integrations, financial requirements, and other miscellaneous burdens they may add. For example, while it sounds nice to get a paid support contract for Jitsi, but how much does it cost in time and money to scope work and manage contractors versus rolling up your own sleeves? If you want to talk about this, I'll make myself available to discuss with you.
>> 
>> Thanks for your patience, and I would encourage you to continue this kind of open feedback to the list. It's great to know people who care.
>> 
>> On Mon, Oct 26, 2020, at 3:18 PM, Adrian Gropper wrote:
>>> I'm sorry that scarce volunteer resources are being consumed by the infrastructure issues. That said, I'm willing to accept the growing pains of the Jitsi solution, and I would suggest we continue. IMHO, open source and open standards are at the core of this community and we need to be eating our own dog food.
>>> 
>>> - Adrian
>>> 
>>> On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 3:05 PM Nikos Fotiou <fotiou@aueb.gr> wrote:
>>>> +1

>>>> It’s all about practicality. Otherwise what is next? Move ccg repository from the Microsoft owned Github to, I don’t know, may be a blockchain-based one?

>>>>  

>>>> Best,

>>>> Nikos

>>>>  

>>>> --

>>>> Nikos Fotiou - http://pages.cs.aueb.gr/~fotiou

>>>> Researcher - Mobile Multimedia Laboratory

>>>> Athens University of Economics and Business

>>>> https://mm.aueb.gr

>>>>  

>>>> 

>>>> *From: *Heather Vescent <mailto:heathervescent@gmail.com>
>>>> *Sent: *Δευτέρα, 26 Οκτωβρίου 2020 8:34 μμ
>>>> *To: *Yancy <mailto:email@yancy.lol>
>>>> *Cc: *W3C Credentials CG (Public List) <mailto:public-credentials@w3.org>
>>>> *Subject: *Re: Zoom is shite
>>>> 

>>>>  

>>>> Yancy,

>>>>  

>>>> This idea has been brought up before. However, this practically adds operational overhead that IMO doesn't add ROI on the CCG mission. That's my opinion and if I was the dictator we'd have switched to Zoom long ago. Clearly I am not a dictator and listen to the desires of the community, even if they are shitposting.

>>>>  

>>>> It is a balance between ideology and practicality. The CCG Jitsi efforts (the chairs, Manu + Jitsi team) has spent significant unpaid resources to:

>>>> - Install/re-install/test a CCG Jitsi instance

>>>> - Monitor and unpack bugs/crashes/server issues

>>>> - Re-stitch code connections to the minutes and CCG infrastructure scripts on github

>>>> - Deal with real-time critical issues where we had to use Zoom as a fall back

>>>> - Deal with critical infrastructure updates that caused jitsi to fail for a majority of users + troubleshoot, etc

>>>>  

>>>> All of these majorly disrupted 4 meetings. I was planning to use Jitsi for our meeting tomorrow when I got word from Manu, that the current system as installed was still failing for a non-critical number of users.

>>>>  

>>>> Contrasted with the amount of time the chairs have spent on Zoom: which we can confidently count on when Jitsi fails. Maybe 1 hour total from all 3 chairs.

>>>>  

>>>> For me, this is about practicality and accessibility, not technological fundamentalism. It's about enabling the chairs and the community to most effectively make positive change in the future of credentials, wallets, DIDs, VCs, SSI, e.g. the topic at hand.

>>>>  

>>>> So while I sincerely appreciate your creative problem solving ideas, I am a harsh pragmatist about what I think is really actionable, especially since I am on the volunteer hook.

>>>>  

>>>> -Heather

>>>>  

>>>> On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 10:55 AM Yancy <email@yancy.lol> wrote:

>>>>> Kim,

>>>>>  

>>>>> It would be healthier imo to investigate contracting out development and maintenance of a Jitsi instance to one or more people in the community, or pay for a service that is more in agreement with the community ethos.  In other-words, lets help pay people for their time for a service we depend.

>>>>>  

>>>>> Dan -- I still prefer Bitcoin over Gitcoin ;)

>>>>>  

>>>>> -Yancy

>>>>>  

>>>>> On 10/26/20 12:36 PM, Daniel Burnett wrote:

>>>>>> This may not be what Yancy had in mind, but GitCoin bounties are an option if there are some funds:  https://gitcoin.co/bounties/funder

>>>>>>  

>>>>>> Depends on how much we want to open up development to folks outside of the community at this stage.  Might be too early.

>>>>>>  

>>>>>> -- dan

>>>>>>  

>>>>>> 

>>>>>> *From:* Kim Hamilton <kimdhamilton@gmail.com>
>>>>>> *Sent:* Monday, October 26, 2020 1:12 PM
>>>>>> *To:* Yancy <email@yancy.lol>
>>>>>> *Cc:* W3C Credentials CG (Public List) <public-credentials@w3.org>
>>>>>> *Subject:* Re: Zoom is shite

>>>>>>  

>>>>>> Hi Yancy -- can you share more about what you had in mind?

>>>>>> Thanks,

>>>>>> Kim

>>>>>>  

>>>>>>  

>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 10:03 AM Yancy <email@yancy.lol> wrote:

>>>>>>> Previously I volunteered to help with Jitsi integration, and at the time, there was discussion about paying for Zoom premium through proceeds from DIF for example.  If there is money to allocate for buying premium hosting from organizations like Zoom, it seems like we could instead funnel some of those proceeds to help pay volunteers to focus their time.  I too would like to see a video service that more aligns with the W3C CCG community ethos, but I think we can organize our efforts so unpaid volunteers need not shoulder the technical burden.

>>>>>>> -Yancy

>>>>>>> On 10/26/20 11:43 AM, Heather Vescent wrote:

>>>>>>>> Ryan, Amy,

>>>>>>>>  

>>>>>>>> Feel free to volunteer to assist in the Jitsi transition. Current unpaid volunteers include all three chairs, Manu & the Jitsi team. We are clocking minimum 1-7+ hours *each* per week. 

>>>>>>>>  

>>>>>>>> If Jitsi is to be a feasible long term solution, we will need dedicated volunteers to navigate/upgrade/fix bugs/etc on an ongoing basis, since I don't see operational stability provided by the Jitsi solution. So, as I wrote in the first sentence, there is a rich opportunity for _you_ to put effort where your typing is and actively support the vision of the future you want, rather than complain about not getting your desired experience without putting any effort towards it that I have seen to date.

>>>>>>>>  

>>>>>>>> -Heather

>>>>>>>>  

>>>>>>>>  

>>>>>>>> On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 2:05 AM rhiaro <amy@rhiaro.co.uk> wrote:

>>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>>> I am also disappointed to not be able to attend due to these reasons
>>>>>>>>> about Zoom, as I was looking forward to hearing about IIW. I hope
>>>>>>>>> someone there will be able to take notes, I'll be present in IRC.
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> Amy
>>>>>>>>> 
>>>>>>>>> On 26.10.2020. 07:07, Ryan Grant wrote:
>>>>>>>>> > Hi Everyone,
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > I would like to attend the next W3C-CCG meeting, sure to be full of
>>>>>>>>> > juicy IIW news, but I won't be able to attend using Zoom, or
>>>>>>>>> > POTS-routed-through-Zoom.
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > I uninstalled Zoom after their horrible vulnerability in July of 2019.
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> >   https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/8/20687014/zoom-security-flaw-video-conference-websites-hijack-mac-cameras
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> >     Today, security researcher Jonathan Leitschuh has publicly
>>>>>>>>> >     disclosed a serious zero-day vulnerability for the Zoom video
>>>>>>>>> >     conferencing app on Macs.  He has demonstrated that any website
>>>>>>>>> >     can open up a video-enabled call on a Mac with the Zoom app
>>>>>>>>> >     installed.  That's possible in part because the Zoom app
>>>>>>>>> >     apparently installs a web server on Macs that accepts requests
>>>>>>>>> >     regular browsers wouldn't.  In fact, if you uninstall Zoom, that
>>>>>>>>> >     web server persists and can reinstall Zoom without your
>>>>>>>>> >     intervention.
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > I have never reinstalled it, because you don't make a "mistake" like
>>>>>>>>> > that if you're moderately culturally aligned with security.
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > I was glad I didn't reinstall it when I found out in April that Zoom
>>>>>>>>> > was actively using servers under CCP jurisdiction.  You don't make a
>>>>>>>>> > "mistake" like that if you care about privacy.
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> >   https://www.secureworldexpo.com/industry-news/zoom-traffic-through-china-data-routing-controls
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> >     [...]
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> >     Zoom was routing some of its virtual meeting traffic, and the
>>>>>>>>> >     digital keys that keep the meetings confidential, through servers
>>>>>>>>> >     in China.
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > I was sad today to hear that Zoom is actively censoring paying
>>>>>>>>> > customers who talk about political things that Zoom does not want
>>>>>>>>> > discussed.  You don't silence people by "mistake".
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> >   https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/janelytvynenko/zoom-deleted-events-censorship
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> >     Zoom Deleted Events Discussing Zoom “Censorship”
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> >       The action follows the company canceling an event at San
>>>>>>>>> >       Francisco State University where Leila Khalid was meant to give
>>>>>>>>> >       a talk.
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> >     on | October 24, 2020
>>>>>>>>> >     by | Jane Lytvynenko
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> >     [...]  “Zoom is committed to supporting the open exchange of ideas
>>>>>>>>> >     and conversations and does not have any policy preventing users
>>>>>>>>> >     from criticizing Zoom,” a spokesperson for the company said.
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> >     [...]
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> >     However, Zoom did not respond to questions about which specific
>>>>>>>>> >     policy was violated or whether other events have been shut down by
>>>>>>>>> >     the company.
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> >     Adam Saeed, a student at University of Leeds, said he used his
>>>>>>>>> >     personal Zoom account to organize the event.  He told BuzzFeed
>>>>>>>>> >     News that the company deleted his event and disabled his account
>>>>>>>>> >     without explanation.  He contacted the company's customer support
>>>>>>>>> >     line, but said he has not yet heard back.
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> > Sometimes there's a lot of peer pressure to do a Zoom call.
>>>>>>>>> > I won't make the mistake of attending.
>>>>>>>>> >
>>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>> 

>>>>>>>>  

>>>>>>>> --

>>>>>>>> Heather Vescent <http://www.heathervescent.com/>

>>>>>>>> Co-Chair, Credentials Community Group @W3C <https://www.w3.org/community/credentials/>

>>>>>>>> President, The Purple Tornado, Inc <https://thepurpletornado.com/>

>>>>>>>> Author, The Secret of Spies <https://amzn.to/2GfJpXH> (Available Oct 2020)

>>>>>>>> Author, The Cyber Attack Survival Manual <https://www.amazon.com/Cyber-Attack-Survival-Manual-Apocalypse/dp/1681886545/> (revised, Dec 2020)

>>>>>>>> Author, A Comprehensive Guide to Self Sovereign Identity <https://ssiscoop.com/>

>>>>>>>>  

>>>>>>>> @heathervescent <https://twitter.com/heathervescent> | Film Futures <https://vimeo.com/heathervescent> | Medium <https://medium.com/@heathervescent/> | LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/heathervescent/> | Future of Security Updates <https://app.convertkit.com/landing_pages/325779/>

>>>> 

>>>>  

>>>> --

>>>> Heather Vescent <http://www.heathervescent.com/>

>>>> Co-Chair, Credentials Community Group @W3C <https://www.w3.org/community/credentials/>

>>>> President, The Purple Tornado, Inc <https://thepurpletornado.com/>

>>>> Author, The Secret of Spies <https://amzn.to/2GfJpXH> (Available Oct 2020)

>>>> Author, The Cyber Attack Survival Manual <https://www.amazon.com/Cyber-Attack-Survival-Manual-Apocalypse/dp/1681886545/> (revised, Dec 2020)

>>>> Author, A Comprehensive Guide to Self Sovereign Identity <https://ssiscoop.com/>

>>>>  

>>>> @heathervescent <https://twitter.com/heathervescent> | Film Futures <https://vimeo.com/heathervescent> | Medium <https://medium.com/@heathervescent/> | LinkedIn <https://www.linkedin.com/in/heathervescent/> | Future of Security Updates <https://app.convertkit.com/landing_pages/325779/>

>>>>  

>>> 
>>> *Attachments:*
>>>  * 5E20FE5DC67F4BBA84D2293466CECF3F.png
>> 
> 
> *Attachments:*
>  * 5E20FE5DC67F4BBA84D2293466CECF3F.png