- From: Yancy <email@yancy.lol>
- Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2020 05:08:24 -0500
- To: Wayne Chang <wyc@fastmail.fm>, Adrian Gropper <agropper@healthurl.com>, Nikos Fotiou <fotiou@aueb.gr>
- Cc: Heather Vescent <heathervescent@gmail.com>, W3C Credentials CG <public-credentials@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <41958459-0ab2-acee-2bc8-dc63330c3616@yancy.lol>
The majority of responses from community and _not_ from leadership have been in favor of _not_ using Zoom. I think the current work done by volunteers to deploy the current Jitsi solution is awesome, and I hope the spirit will not be lost by "temporarily" switching back to Zoom. -Yancy On 10/26/20 4:55 PM, Wayne Chang wrote: > Of course, we appreciate the feedback--it's one of our core instincts > to prefer an open and community-driven solution where possible. I must > also acknowledge the previous point around our heavy reliance on other > proprietary and centrally controlled services such as GitHub, which is > currently struggling with DCMA takedowns of projects such as > youtube-dl, and has drawn little protest from the community to date. > We have to tread a fine line between what's idealistic and what's > practical. > > Therefore, the next meeting will be on Zoom to ensure we have a smooth > discussion, just as the majority of the current W3C TPAC meetings are > being held, and just as the DID WG conducts their sessions. You can > join with a web browser or dial-in with a phone number; you needn't > install client software. > > That said, we haven't jettisoned the immense amount of accomplished > Jitsi work and I personally view it as an important community effort, > due to its aforementioned open nature and tight integration with our > IRC bot. The server is alive and well at https://meet.w3c-ccg.org/ > <https://meet.w3c-ccg.org/>, and volunteers are indeed investigating > compatibility with the latest changes in Chrome. These things just > take time, and folks do have day jobs. If the community would like to > give it another run after these changes are in, I would be delighted > to support this effort. > > I also welcome any proposals of services that meet our practicality > requirements, including other such open conferencing systems or a > Jitsi support contract. However, before we spout out hasty suggestions > such as $product_name, I would request that they are first given some > thought on the fit within our requirements around recordings/notes > publishing/bot integrations, financial requirements, and other > miscellaneous burdens they may add. For example, while it sounds nice > to get a paid support contract for Jitsi, but how much does it cost in > time and money to scope work and manage contractors versus rolling up > your own sleeves? If you want to talk about this, I'll make myself > available to discuss with you. > > Thanks for your patience, and I would encourage you to continue this > kind of open feedback to the list. It's great to know people who care. > > On Mon, Oct 26, 2020, at 3:18 PM, Adrian Gropper wrote: >> I'm sorry that scarce volunteer resources are being consumed by the >> infrastructure issues. That said, I'm willing to accept the growing >> pains of the Jitsi solution, and I would suggest we continue. IMHO, >> open source and open standards are at the core of this community and >> we need to be eating our own dog food. >> >> - Adrian >> >> On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 3:05 PM Nikos Fotiou <fotiou@aueb.gr >> <mailto:fotiou@aueb.gr>> wrote: >> >> +1 >> >> It’s all about practicality. Otherwise what is next? Move ccg >> repository from the Microsoft owned Github to, I don’t know, may >> be a blockchain-based one? >> >> >> Best, >> >> Nikos >> >> >> -- >> >> Nikos Fotiou - http://pages.cs.aueb.gr/~fotiou >> <http://pages.cs.aueb.gr/~fotiou> >> >> Researcher - Mobile Multimedia Laboratory >> >> Athens University of Economics and Business >> >> https://mm.aueb.gr <https://mm.aueb.gr> >> >> >> >> *From: *Heather Vescent <mailto:heathervescent@gmail.com> >> *Sent: *Δευτέρα, 26 Οκτωβρίου 2020 8:34 μμ >> *To: *Yancy <mailto:email@yancy.lol> >> *Cc: *W3C Credentials CG (Public List) >> <mailto:public-credentials@w3.org> >> *Subject: *Re: Zoom is shite >> >> >> >> Yancy, >> >> >> This idea has been brought up before. However, this practically >> adds operational overhead that IMO doesn't add ROI on the CCG >> mission. That's my opinion and if I was the dictator we'd have >> switched to Zoom long ago. Clearly I am not a dictator and listen >> to the desires of the community, even if they are shitposting. >> >> >> It is a balance between ideology and practicality. The CCG Jitsi >> efforts (the chairs, Manu + Jitsi team) has spent >> significant unpaid resources to: >> >> - Install/re-install/test a CCG Jitsi instance >> >> - Monitor and unpack bugs/crashes/server issues >> >> - Re-stitch code connections to the minutes and CCG >> infrastructure scripts on github >> >> - Deal with real-time critical issues where we had to use Zoom as >> a fall back >> >> - Deal with critical infrastructure updates that caused jitsi to >> fail for a majority of users + troubleshoot, etc >> >> >> All of these majorly disrupted 4 meetings. I was planning to use >> Jitsi for our meeting tomorrow when I got word from Manu, that >> the current system as installed was still failing for a >> non-critical number of users. >> >> >> Contrasted with the amount of time the chairs have spent on Zoom: >> which we can confidently count on when Jitsi fails. Maybe 1 hour >> total from all 3 chairs. >> >> >> For me, this is about practicality and accessibility, not >> technological fundamentalism. It's about enabling the chairs and >> the community to most effectively make positive change in the >> future of credentials, wallets, DIDs, VCs, SSI, e.g. the topic at >> hand. >> >> >> So while I sincerely appreciate your creative problem solving >> ideas, I am a harsh pragmatist about what I think is really >> actionable, especially since I am on the volunteer hook. >> >> >> -Heather >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 10:55 AM Yancy <email@yancy.lol> wrote: >> >> Kim, >> >> >> It would be healthier imo to investigate contracting out >> development and maintenance of a Jitsi instance to one or >> more people in the community, or pay for a service that is >> more in agreement with the community ethos. In other-words, >> lets help pay people for their time for a service we depend. >> >> >> Dan -- I still prefer Bitcoin over Gitcoin ;) >> >> >> -Yancy >> >> >> On 10/26/20 12:36 PM, Daniel Burnett wrote: >> >> This may not be what Yancy had in mind, but GitCoin >> bounties are an option if there are some funds: >> https://gitcoin.co/bounties/funder >> <https://gitcoin.co/bounties/funder> >> >> >> Depends on how much we want to open up development to >> folks outside of the community at this stage. Might be >> too early. >> >> >> -- dan >> >> >> >> *From:*Kim Hamilton <kimdhamilton@gmail.com> >> <mailto:kimdhamilton@gmail.com> >> *Sent:* Monday, October 26, 2020 1:12 PM >> *To:* Yancy <email@yancy.lol> <mailto:email@yancy.lol> >> *Cc:* W3C Credentials CG (Public List) >> <public-credentials@w3.org> >> <mailto:public-credentials@w3.org> >> *Subject:* Re: Zoom is shite >> >> >> Hi Yancy -- can you share more about what you had in mind? >> >> Thanks, >> >> Kim >> >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 10:03 AM Yancy <email@yancy.lol> >> <mailto:email@yancy.lol> wrote: >> >> Previously I volunteered to help with Jitsi >> integration, and at the time, there was discussion >> about paying for Zoom premium through proceeds from >> DIF for example. If there is money to allocate for >> buying premium hosting from organizations like Zoom, >> it seems like we could instead funnel some of those >> proceeds to help pay volunteers to focus their time. >> I too would like to see a video service that more >> aligns with the W3C CCG community ethos, but I think >> we can organize our efforts so unpaid volunteers need >> not shoulder the technical burden. >> >> -Yancy >> >> On 10/26/20 11:43 AM, Heather Vescent wrote: >> >> Ryan, Amy, >> >> >> Feel free to volunteer to assist in the Jitsi >> transition. Current unpaid volunteers include all >> three chairs, Manu & the Jitsi team. We are >> clocking minimum 1-7+ hours *each* per week. >> >> >> If Jitsi is to be a feasible long term solution, >> we will need dedicated volunteers to >> navigate/upgrade/fix bugs/etc on an ongoing >> basis, since I don't see operational stability >> provided by the Jitsi solution. So, as I wrote in >> the first sentence, there is a rich opportunity >> for _you_ to put effort where your typing is and >> actively support the vision of the future you >> want, rather than complain about not getting your >> desired experience without putting any effort >> towards it that I have seen to date. >> >> >> -Heather >> >> >> >> On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 2:05 AM rhiaro >> <amy@rhiaro.co.uk <mailto:amy@rhiaro.co.uk>> wrote: >> >> >> I am also disappointed to not be able to >> attend due to these reasons >> about Zoom, as I was looking forward to >> hearing about IIW. I hope >> someone there will be able to take notes, >> I'll be present in IRC. >> >> Amy >> >> On 26.10.2020. 07:07, Ryan Grant wrote: >> > Hi Everyone, >> > >> > I would like to attend the next W3C-CCG >> meeting, sure to be full of >> > juicy IIW news, but I won't be able to >> attend using Zoom, or >> > POTS-routed-through-Zoom. >> > >> > I uninstalled Zoom after their horrible >> vulnerability in July of 2019. >> > >> > >> https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/8/20687014/zoom-security-flaw-video-conference-websites-hijack-mac-cameras >> <https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/8/20687014/zoom-security-flaw-video-conference-websites-hijack-mac-cameras> >> > >> > Today, security researcher Jonathan >> Leitschuh has publicly >> > disclosed a serious zero-day >> vulnerability for the Zoom video >> > conferencing app on Macs. He has >> demonstrated that any website >> > can open up a video-enabled call on a >> Mac with the Zoom app >> > installed. That's possible in part >> because the Zoom app >> > apparently installs a web server on >> Macs that accepts requests >> > regular browsers wouldn't. In fact, if >> you uninstall Zoom, that >> > web server persists and can reinstall >> Zoom without your >> > intervention. >> > >> > I have never reinstalled it, because you >> don't make a "mistake" like >> > that if you're moderately culturally >> aligned with security. >> > >> > I was glad I didn't reinstall it when I >> found out in April that Zoom >> > was actively using servers under CCP >> jurisdiction. You don't make a >> > "mistake" like that if you care about privacy. >> > >> > >> https://www.secureworldexpo.com/industry-news/zoom-traffic-through-china-data-routing-controls >> <https://www.secureworldexpo.com/industry-news/zoom-traffic-through-china-data-routing-controls> >> > >> > [...] >> > >> > Zoom was routing some of its virtual >> meeting traffic, and the >> > digital keys that keep the meetings >> confidential, through servers >> > in China. >> > >> > I was sad today to hear that Zoom is >> actively censoring paying >> > customers who talk about political things >> that Zoom does not want >> > discussed. You don't silence people by >> "mistake". >> > >> > >> https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/janelytvynenko/zoom-deleted-events-censorship >> <https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/janelytvynenko/zoom-deleted-events-censorship> >> > >> > Zoom Deleted Events Discussing Zoom >> “Censorship” >> > >> > The action follows the company >> canceling an event at San >> > Francisco State University where >> Leila Khalid was meant to give >> > a talk. >> > >> > on | October 24, 2020 >> > by | Jane Lytvynenko >> > >> > [...] “Zoom is committed to supporting >> the open exchange of ideas >> > and conversations and does not have any >> policy preventing users >> > from criticizing Zoom,” a spokesperson >> for the company said. >> > >> > [...] >> > >> > However, Zoom did not respond to >> questions about which specific >> > policy was violated or whether other >> events have been shut down by >> > the company. >> > >> > Adam Saeed, a student at University of >> Leeds, said he used his >> > personal Zoom account to organize the >> event. He told BuzzFeed >> > News that the company deleted his event >> and disabled his account >> > without explanation. He contacted the >> company's customer support >> > line, but said he has not yet heard back. >> > >> > Sometimes there's a lot of peer pressure to >> do a Zoom call. >> > I won't make the mistake of attending. >> > >> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Heather Vescent <http://www.heathervescent.com/> >> >> Co-Chair, Credentials Community Group @W3C >> <https://www.w3.org/community/credentials/> >> >> President, The Purple Tornado, Inc >> <https://thepurpletornado.com/> >> >> Author, The Secret of Spies >> <https://amzn.to/2GfJpXH> (Available Oct 2020) >> >> Author, The Cyber Attack Survival Manual >> <https://www.amazon.com/Cyber-Attack-Survival-Manual-Apocalypse/dp/1681886545/> (revised, >> Dec 2020) >> >> Author, A Comprehensive Guide to Self Sovereign >> Identity <https://ssiscoop.com/> >> >> >> @heathervescent >> <https://twitter.com/heathervescent> | Film >> Futures <https://vimeo.com/heathervescent> | >> Medium <https://medium.com/@heathervescent/> | >> LinkedIn >> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/heathervescent/> | >> Future of Security Updates >> <https://app.convertkit.com/landing_pages/325779/> >> >> >> >> -- >> >> Heather Vescent <http://www.heathervescent.com/> >> >> Co-Chair, Credentials Community Group @W3C >> <https://www.w3.org/community/credentials/> >> >> President, The Purple Tornado, Inc <https://thepurpletornado.com/> >> >> Author, The Secret of Spies <https://amzn.to/2GfJpXH> (Available >> Oct 2020) >> >> Author, The Cyber Attack Survival Manual >> <https://www.amazon.com/Cyber-Attack-Survival-Manual-Apocalypse/dp/1681886545/> (revised, >> Dec 2020) >> >> Author, A Comprehensive Guide to Self Sovereign Identity >> <https://ssiscoop.com/> >> >> >> @heathervescent <https://twitter.com/heathervescent> | Film >> Futures <https://vimeo.com/heathervescent> | Medium >> <https://medium.com/@heathervescent/> | LinkedIn >> <https://www.linkedin.com/in/heathervescent/> | Future of >> Security Updates <https://app.convertkit.com/landing_pages/325779/> >> >> >> >> *Attachments:* >> >> * 5E20FE5DC67F4BBA84D2293466CECF3F.png >> >
Received on Tuesday, 27 October 2020 10:09:05 UTC