W3C home > Mailing lists > Public > public-credentials@w3.org > October 2020

Re: Zoom is shite

From: Yancy <email@yancy.lol>
Date: Tue, 27 Oct 2020 05:08:24 -0500
To: Wayne Chang <wyc@fastmail.fm>, Adrian Gropper <agropper@healthurl.com>, Nikos Fotiou <fotiou@aueb.gr>
Cc: Heather Vescent <heathervescent@gmail.com>, W3C Credentials CG <public-credentials@w3.org>
Message-ID: <41958459-0ab2-acee-2bc8-dc63330c3616@yancy.lol>
The majority of responses from community and _not_ from leadership have 
been in favor of _not_ using Zoom.  I think the current work done by 
volunteers to deploy the current Jitsi solution is awesome, and I hope 
the spirit will not be lost by "temporarily" switching back to Zoom.

-Yancy

On 10/26/20 4:55 PM, Wayne Chang wrote:
> Of course, we appreciate the feedback--it's one of our core instincts 
> to prefer an open and community-driven solution where possible. I must 
> also acknowledge the previous point around our heavy reliance on other 
> proprietary and centrally controlled services such as GitHub, which is 
> currently struggling with DCMA takedowns of projects such as 
> youtube-dl, and has drawn little protest from the community to date. 
> We have to tread a fine line between what's idealistic and what's 
> practical.
>
> Therefore, the next meeting will be on Zoom to ensure we have a smooth 
> discussion, just as the majority of the current W3C TPAC meetings are 
> being held, and just as the DID WG conducts their sessions. You can 
> join with a web browser or dial-in with a phone number; you needn't 
> install client software.
>
> That said, we haven't jettisoned the immense amount of accomplished 
> Jitsi work and I personally view it as an important community effort, 
> due to its aforementioned open nature and tight integration with our 
> IRC bot. The server is alive and well at https://meet.w3c-ccg.org/ 
> <https://meet.w3c-ccg.org/>, and volunteers are indeed investigating 
> compatibility with the latest changes in Chrome. These things just 
> take time, and folks do have day jobs. If the community would like to 
> give it another run after these changes are in, I would be delighted 
> to support this effort.
>
> I also welcome any proposals of services that meet our practicality 
> requirements, including other such open conferencing systems or a 
> Jitsi support contract. However, before we spout out hasty suggestions 
> such as $product_name, I would request that they are first given some 
> thought on the fit within our requirements around recordings/notes 
> publishing/bot integrations, financial requirements, and other 
> miscellaneous burdens they may add. For example, while it sounds nice 
> to get a paid support contract for Jitsi, but how much does it cost in 
> time and money to scope work and manage contractors versus rolling up 
> your own sleeves? If you want to talk about this, I'll make myself 
> available to discuss with you.
>
> Thanks for your patience, and I would encourage you to continue this 
> kind of open feedback to the list. It's great to know people who care.
>
> On Mon, Oct 26, 2020, at 3:18 PM, Adrian Gropper wrote:
>> I'm sorry that scarce volunteer resources are being consumed by the 
>> infrastructure issues. That said, I'm willing to accept the growing 
>> pains of the Jitsi solution, and I would suggest we continue. IMHO, 
>> open source and open standards are at the core of this community and 
>> we need to be eating our own dog food.
>>
>> - Adrian
>>
>> On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 3:05 PM Nikos Fotiou <fotiou@aueb.gr 
>> <mailto:fotiou@aueb.gr>> wrote:
>>
>>     +1
>>
>>     It’s all about practicality. Otherwise what is next? Move ccg
>>     repository from the Microsoft owned Github to, I don’t know, may
>>     be a blockchain-based one?
>>
>>
>>     Best,
>>
>>     Nikos
>>
>>
>>     --
>>
>>     Nikos Fotiou - http://pages.cs.aueb.gr/~fotiou
>>     <http://pages.cs.aueb.gr/~fotiou>
>>
>>     Researcher - Mobile Multimedia Laboratory
>>
>>     Athens University of Economics and Business
>>
>>     https://mm.aueb.gr <https://mm.aueb.gr>
>>
>>
>>
>>     *From: *Heather Vescent <mailto:heathervescent@gmail.com>
>>     *Sent: *Δευτέρα, 26 Οκτωβρίου 2020 8:34 μμ
>>     *To: *Yancy <mailto:email@yancy.lol>
>>     *Cc: *W3C Credentials CG (Public List)
>>     <mailto:public-credentials@w3.org>
>>     *Subject: *Re: Zoom is shite
>>
>>
>>
>>     Yancy,
>>
>>
>>     This idea has been brought up before. However, this practically
>>     adds operational overhead that IMO doesn't add ROI on the CCG
>>     mission. That's my opinion and if I was the dictator we'd have
>>     switched to Zoom long ago. Clearly I am not a dictator and listen
>>     to the desires of the community, even if they are shitposting.
>>
>>
>>     It is a balance between ideology and practicality. The CCG Jitsi
>>     efforts (the chairs, Manu + Jitsi team) has spent
>>     significant unpaid resources to:
>>
>>     - Install/re-install/test a CCG Jitsi instance
>>
>>     - Monitor and unpack bugs/crashes/server issues
>>
>>     - Re-stitch code connections to the minutes and CCG
>>     infrastructure scripts on github
>>
>>     - Deal with real-time critical issues where we had to use Zoom as
>>     a fall back
>>
>>     - Deal with critical infrastructure updates that caused jitsi to
>>     fail for a majority of users + troubleshoot, etc
>>
>>
>>     All of these majorly disrupted 4 meetings. I was planning to use
>>     Jitsi for our meeting tomorrow when I got word from Manu, that
>>     the current system as installed was still failing for a
>>     non-critical number of users.
>>
>>
>>     Contrasted with the amount of time the chairs have spent on Zoom:
>>     which we can confidently count on when Jitsi fails. Maybe 1 hour
>>     total from all 3 chairs.
>>
>>
>>     For me, this is about practicality and accessibility, not
>>     technological fundamentalism. It's about enabling the chairs and
>>     the community to most effectively make positive change in the
>>     future of credentials, wallets, DIDs, VCs, SSI, e.g. the topic at
>>     hand.
>>
>>
>>     So while I sincerely appreciate your creative problem solving
>>     ideas, I am a harsh pragmatist about what I think is really
>>     actionable, especially since I am on the volunteer hook.
>>
>>
>>     -Heather
>>
>>
>>     On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 10:55 AM Yancy <email@yancy.lol> wrote:
>>
>>         Kim,
>>
>>
>>         It would be healthier imo to investigate contracting out
>>         development and maintenance of a Jitsi instance to one or
>>         more people in the community, or pay for a service that is
>>         more in agreement with the community ethos.  In other-words,
>>         lets help pay people for their time for a service we depend.
>>
>>
>>         Dan -- I still prefer Bitcoin over Gitcoin ;)
>>
>>
>>         -Yancy
>>
>>
>>         On 10/26/20 12:36 PM, Daniel Burnett wrote:
>>
>>             This may not be what Yancy had in mind, but GitCoin
>>             bounties are an option if there are some funds:
>>             https://gitcoin.co/bounties/funder
>>             <https://gitcoin.co/bounties/funder>
>>
>>
>>             Depends on how much we want to open up development to
>>             folks outside of the community at this stage.  Might be
>>             too early.
>>
>>
>>             -- dan
>>
>>
>>
>>             *From:*Kim Hamilton <kimdhamilton@gmail.com>
>>             <mailto:kimdhamilton@gmail.com>
>>             *Sent:* Monday, October 26, 2020 1:12 PM
>>             *To:* Yancy <email@yancy.lol> <mailto:email@yancy.lol>
>>             *Cc:* W3C Credentials CG (Public List)
>>             <public-credentials@w3.org>
>>             <mailto:public-credentials@w3.org>
>>             *Subject:* Re: Zoom is shite
>>
>>
>>             Hi Yancy -- can you share more about what you had in mind?
>>
>>             Thanks,
>>
>>             Kim
>>
>>
>>
>>             On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 10:03 AM Yancy <email@yancy.lol>
>>             <mailto:email@yancy.lol> wrote:
>>
>>                 Previously I volunteered to help with Jitsi
>>                 integration, and at the time, there was discussion
>>                 about paying for Zoom premium through proceeds from
>>                 DIF for example.  If there is money to allocate for
>>                 buying premium hosting from organizations like Zoom,
>>                 it seems like we could instead funnel some of those
>>                 proceeds to help pay volunteers to focus their time. 
>>                 I too would like to see a video service that more
>>                 aligns with the W3C CCG community ethos, but I think
>>                 we can organize our efforts so unpaid volunteers need
>>                 not shoulder the technical burden.
>>
>>                 -Yancy
>>
>>                 On 10/26/20 11:43 AM, Heather Vescent wrote:
>>
>>                     Ryan, Amy,
>>
>>
>>                     Feel free to volunteer to assist in the Jitsi
>>                     transition. Current unpaid volunteers include all
>>                     three chairs, Manu & the Jitsi team. We are
>>                     clocking minimum 1-7+ hours *each* per week.
>>
>>
>>                     If Jitsi is to be a feasible long term solution,
>>                     we will need dedicated volunteers to
>>                     navigate/upgrade/fix bugs/etc on an ongoing
>>                     basis, since I don't see operational stability
>>                     provided by the Jitsi solution. So, as I wrote in
>>                     the first sentence, there is a rich opportunity
>>                     for _you_ to put effort where your typing is and
>>                     actively support the vision of the future you
>>                     want, rather than complain about not getting your
>>                     desired experience without putting any effort
>>                     towards it that I have seen to date.
>>
>>
>>                     -Heather
>>
>>
>>
>>                     On Mon, Oct 26, 2020 at 2:05 AM rhiaro
>>                     <amy@rhiaro.co.uk <mailto:amy@rhiaro.co.uk>> wrote:
>>
>>
>>                         I am also disappointed to not be able to
>>                         attend due to these reasons
>>                         about Zoom, as I was looking forward to
>>                         hearing about IIW. I hope
>>                         someone there will be able to take notes,
>>                         I'll be present in IRC.
>>
>>                         Amy
>>
>>                         On 26.10.2020. 07:07, Ryan Grant wrote:
>>                         > Hi Everyone,
>>                         >
>>                         > I would like to attend the next W3C-CCG
>>                         meeting, sure to be full of
>>                         > juicy IIW news, but I won't be able to
>>                         attend using Zoom, or
>>                         > POTS-routed-through-Zoom.
>>                         >
>>                         > I uninstalled Zoom after their horrible
>>                         vulnerability in July of 2019.
>>                         >
>>                         >
>>                         https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/8/20687014/zoom-security-flaw-video-conference-websites-hijack-mac-cameras
>>                         <https://www.theverge.com/2019/7/8/20687014/zoom-security-flaw-video-conference-websites-hijack-mac-cameras>
>>                         >
>>                         >     Today, security researcher Jonathan
>>                         Leitschuh has publicly
>>                         >     disclosed a serious zero-day
>>                         vulnerability for the Zoom video
>>                         >     conferencing app on Macs.  He has
>>                         demonstrated that any website
>>                         >     can open up a video-enabled call on a
>>                         Mac with the Zoom app
>>                         >     installed.  That's possible in part
>>                         because the Zoom app
>>                         >     apparently installs a web server on
>>                         Macs that accepts requests
>>                         >     regular browsers wouldn't.  In fact, if
>>                         you uninstall Zoom, that
>>                         >     web server persists and can reinstall
>>                         Zoom without your
>>                         >     intervention.
>>                         >
>>                         > I have never reinstalled it, because you
>>                         don't make a "mistake" like
>>                         > that if you're moderately culturally
>>                         aligned with security.
>>                         >
>>                         > I was glad I didn't reinstall it when I
>>                         found out in April that Zoom
>>                         > was actively using servers under CCP
>>                         jurisdiction.  You don't make a
>>                         > "mistake" like that if you care about privacy.
>>                         >
>>                         >
>>                         https://www.secureworldexpo.com/industry-news/zoom-traffic-through-china-data-routing-controls
>>                         <https://www.secureworldexpo.com/industry-news/zoom-traffic-through-china-data-routing-controls>
>>                         >
>>                         >     [...]
>>                         >
>>                         >     Zoom was routing some of its virtual
>>                         meeting traffic, and the
>>                         >     digital keys that keep the meetings
>>                         confidential, through servers
>>                         >     in China.
>>                         >
>>                         > I was sad today to hear that Zoom is
>>                         actively censoring paying
>>                         > customers who talk about political things
>>                         that Zoom does not want
>>                         > discussed.  You don't silence people by
>>                         "mistake".
>>                         >
>>                         >
>>                         https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/janelytvynenko/zoom-deleted-events-censorship
>>                         <https://www.buzzfeednews.com/article/janelytvynenko/zoom-deleted-events-censorship>
>>                         >
>>                         >     Zoom Deleted Events Discussing Zoom
>>                         “Censorship”
>>                         >
>>                         >       The action follows the company
>>                         canceling an event at San
>>                         >       Francisco State University where
>>                         Leila Khalid was meant to give
>>                         >       a talk.
>>                         >
>>                         >     on | October 24, 2020
>>                         >     by | Jane Lytvynenko
>>                         >
>>                         >     [...]  “Zoom is committed to supporting
>>                         the open exchange of ideas
>>                         >     and conversations and does not have any
>>                         policy preventing users
>>                         >     from criticizing Zoom,” a spokesperson
>>                         for the company said.
>>                         >
>>                         >     [...]
>>                         >
>>                         >     However, Zoom did not respond to
>>                         questions about which specific
>>                         >     policy was violated or whether other
>>                         events have been shut down by
>>                         >     the company.
>>                         >
>>                         >     Adam Saeed, a student at University of
>>                         Leeds, said he used his
>>                         >     personal Zoom account to organize the
>>                         event.  He told BuzzFeed
>>                         >     News that the company deleted his event
>>                         and disabled his account
>>                         >     without explanation.  He contacted the
>>                         company's customer support
>>                         >     line, but said he has not yet heard back.
>>                         >
>>                         > Sometimes there's a lot of peer pressure to
>>                         do a Zoom call.
>>                         > I won't make the mistake of attending.
>>                         >
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>                     --
>>
>>                     Heather Vescent <http://www.heathervescent.com/>
>>
>>                     Co-Chair, Credentials Community Group @W3C
>>                     <https://www.w3.org/community/credentials/>
>>
>>                     President, The Purple Tornado, Inc
>>                     <https://thepurpletornado.com/>
>>
>>                     Author, The Secret of Spies
>>                     <https://amzn.to/2GfJpXH> (Available Oct 2020)
>>
>>                     Author, The Cyber Attack Survival Manual
>>                     <https://www.amazon.com/Cyber-Attack-Survival-Manual-Apocalypse/dp/1681886545/> (revised,
>>                     Dec 2020)
>>
>>                     Author, A Comprehensive Guide to Self Sovereign
>>                     Identity <https://ssiscoop.com/>
>>
>>
>>                     @heathervescent
>>                     <https://twitter.com/heathervescent> | Film
>>                     Futures <https://vimeo.com/heathervescent> |
>>                     Medium <https://medium.com/@heathervescent/> |
>>                     LinkedIn
>>                     <https://www.linkedin.com/in/heathervescent/> |
>>                     Future of Security Updates
>>                     <https://app.convertkit.com/landing_pages/325779/>
>>
>>
>>
>>     --
>>
>>     Heather Vescent <http://www.heathervescent.com/>
>>
>>     Co-Chair, Credentials Community Group @W3C
>>     <https://www.w3.org/community/credentials/>
>>
>>     President, The Purple Tornado, Inc <https://thepurpletornado.com/>
>>
>>     Author, The Secret of Spies <https://amzn.to/2GfJpXH> (Available
>>     Oct 2020)
>>
>>     Author, The Cyber Attack Survival Manual
>>     <https://www.amazon.com/Cyber-Attack-Survival-Manual-Apocalypse/dp/1681886545/> (revised,
>>     Dec 2020)
>>
>>     Author, A Comprehensive Guide to Self Sovereign Identity
>>     <https://ssiscoop.com/>
>>
>>
>>     @heathervescent <https://twitter.com/heathervescent> | Film
>>     Futures <https://vimeo.com/heathervescent> | Medium
>>     <https://medium.com/@heathervescent/> | LinkedIn
>>     <https://www.linkedin.com/in/heathervescent/> | Future of
>>     Security Updates <https://app.convertkit.com/landing_pages/325779/>
>>
>>
>>
>> *Attachments:*
>>
>>   * 5E20FE5DC67F4BBA84D2293466CECF3F.png
>>
>
Received on Tuesday, 27 October 2020 10:09:05 UTC

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