Re: [MINUTES] W3C CCG Verifiable Credentials for Education Task Force Call - 2020-07-13 12pm ET

correction: meeting minutes link is here:
https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2020-07-13-vc-education/

On Wed, Jul 15, 2020 at 10:12 AM W3C CCG Chairs <w3c.ccg@gmail.com> wrote:

> Thanks to James Chartrand for scribing this week! The minutes
> for this week's CCG Verifiable Credentials for Education Task Force
> telecon are now available:
>
> https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2020-07-13/
>
> Full text of the discussion follows for W3C archival purposes.
> Audio from the meeting is available as well (link provided below).
>
> ----------------------------------------------------------------
> CCG Verifiable Credentials for Education Task Force Telecon Minutes for
> 2020-07-13
>
> Agenda:
>
> https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-credentials/2020Jul/0009.html
> Topics:
>   1. Introductions & Reintroductions
>   2. Modeling Verifiable Credentials for Education
>   3. Open University, Solid, and Open Badges
> Organizer:
>   Heather Vescent and Wayne Chang and Kim Hamilton Duffy
> Scribe:
>   James Chartrand
> Present:
>   Kim Hamilton Duffy, James Chartrand, Laura Jaurequi, Chris
>   Winczewski, Alexander Mikroyannidis, Nate Otto, Allan Third, Jim
>   Kelly, John Domingue, Dmitri Zagidulin, David Mason, Stuart
>   Freeman, J. Philipp Schmidt, Adam Lemmon, Jim Goodell, Simone
>   Ravaoli, Andy Thomas, Irene Hernandez, Juan Caballero, Mano
>   Ramachandran, Mike Sessa, Phil Long, Loïc Jeannin, Niaz
>   Chowdhury, Benjamin Young, David Ward, Karen O'Donoghue, loveish,
>   Matt Lisle, Steve Magennis
> Audio:
>   https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/2020-07-13/audio.ogg
>
> Kim Hamilton Duffy: https://www.w3.org/community/credentials/join
> Kim Hamilton Duffy: https://www.w3.org/accounts/request
> Kim Hamilton Duffy:
>   https://www.w3.org/community/about/agreements/cla/
> Kim Hamilton Duffy: https://w3c-ccg.github.io/meetings/
> James Chartrand is scribing.
>
> Topic: Introductions & Reintroductions
>
> Kim Hamilton Duffy:  We are moving this meeting to every other
>   week.  will update calendar invites.
>   ... want to move to work item focus in addition to speakers
>   ... want to work on deliverables and still have good slate of
>   speakers
>   ... next meeting in two weeks will talk about Modelling VC
>   document
>
> Topic: Modeling Verifiable Credentials for Education
>
> Kim Hamilton Duffy:
>
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pt-VNnjoYgl23Mlu0Tjyax5RgANPBfDijERz0SNYfSo/edit
> Kim Hamilton Duffy:  We want to come up with working examples of
>   VCs.  expressing well known credentials as VC.  using ILR
>   wrapper.  come up with good set of recommendations
>   ... turn over to ILR group
>   ... we recommend standards, incubate
>   ... I will call on Jim Kelly and Nate Otto
>   ... in document two topics
> Kim Hamilton Duffy:
>
> https://docs.google.com/document/d/1pt-VNnjoYgl23Mlu0Tjyax5RgANPBfDijERz0SNYfSo/edit#heading=h.pqaju4ey6s0b
> .. 1. Xml formatted credentials
>   ... do vc support XML as we thought they would, and does it
>   make more sense to model this in json or json-ld
>   ... json-ld is an RDF serialization and so to can XML. assumed
>   therefore xml was supported, but realize now there is a bit more
>   work and not as straighforward, but is doable.
>   ... could be a solution for any standard expressed as XML to
>   include those in VC.
>   ... if we went the XML path there is some tooling work for
>   supporting signature screens.  we would be adding a new
>   serialization.  total work is small - bookkeeping.
> Jim Kelly:  Pesc board chair and consultatnt
>   ... all in XML like high school transcripts
>   ... see need for move to JSON
> Mano Ramachandran: Guys, do you have any India and UK specific
>   numbers?
>   ... we've been discussing for some time.  we have a json-ld
>   task force in place for 2 or 3 years to discuss including
>   geocode, edxchange
>   ... we have been discussing adding json versions of our xML
>   standards.  xml will not disappear.
> Mano Ramachandran:  Sorry, we don't. But we are overhauling our
>   connection infrastructure and will have something more
>   modern/open by end of summer [scribe assist by Kim Hamilton
>   Duffy]
>   ... not a small feat.  easy to create carbon copies.  easy to
>   create carbon copies in theory,, but not sure that's what the
>   community wants
>   ... Michael sessa is also on the line, and can answer quetions
> Mike Sessa: Good day all...can contact me at
>   michael.sessa@pesc.org
>   ... there are tools that generate json from xml so creating a
>   carbon copy is not difficult.  working on it.  working group is
>   being put together to examine that as a standard
>   ... process to standard creation that requires review and
>   approval.  steps are involved.
>   ... we would be able to add a json version of our pesc
>   standards, but not clear when we could do json=ld
> Driven and developed by PESC Members stepping up (not PESC staff)
>   ... I have begun to realize the value of json=ld for our
>   standards especially as a payload because the payload becomes
>   semantically readable
>   ... is readable as json but more valuable as json-ld
>   ... I know there is a desire to have pesc formats in json but
>   we don't have a timeframe but we are pulling the process to
>   together to build a workgroup and gather the pieces to create a
>   new standard
> Kim Hamilton Duffy:  The question of json vs json=ld is a good
>   conversation to have in this group
>   ... efforts so far have assumed linked data but that has
>   additional complexity
>   ... Even if we all like it it is still good to document
> Kim Hamilton Duffy:
>
> https://github.com/w3c-ccg/vc-examples/blob/master/docs/edu/university-degree-verifiable-credential.json
>   ... Example 1 - course program certificate - this example shows
>   minimal education vc.  if you were designing the minimal thing
>   today that's what it would look like
>   ... nate and I are teeing up discussion in a thread - what
>   terminology do we want to use?  ILR LER?
>   ... how to model open badge as VC, etc.
> Nate Otto:  This issue here is how do we model a claim that a
>   learner has gotten a certificate
>   ... scroll to page 5, working example 1
>   ... shows. a real world certificate and we want to put it in
>   language of VC
>   ... VC allows any claim about someone, e.g., is someone over
>   21, favourite colour is green
>   ... properties asserting about individual
> Nate Otto: See the degree claim:
>
> https://github.com/w3c-ccg/vc-examples/blob/master/docs/edu/university-degree-verifiable-credential.json#L17
>   ... line 17 - the claim is degree - this subject with DID has
>   degree
>   ... claiming degree is not a common claim
>   ... of all the learning claims in your history very few are
>   degrees
>   ... Is there a common claim type to represent achievement of
>   educational goal
>   ... What is the core concept?
>   ... An achievement level that has criteria and an issuer.  like
>   open badges class - as set of properties - criteria, image,
>   assessed by issuer
> Phil Long: Is the problem Nate is discussing about a defined
>   achievement represents a poverty of structured learning outcomes
>   in the higher ed community?
>   ... What does this mean - open badges calls it a badge - this
>   assertion is about this.  Idea is - 'has achieved'
>   ... Scroll to page 7 - 'holds' means learner holds credential
>   ... A term like hasAchieved should be used.
>   ... Working example 5 is same thing - hasAchieved.  same idea
>   except competency is not necessarily defined by issuer of
>   credential itself.  could be a shared def across issuers
> Allan Third: "HasDemonstrated" seems slightly more general?
>   ... What is this idea of a hasAchieved claim?
>   ... I think it has more power than something like 'degree'
> Kim Hamilton Duffy:  I agree.  should spend time.
> .. Time to turn to main topic.  People from Open University to
>   talk about their deployment with solid and open badges
>
> Topic: Open University, Solid, and Open Badges
>
> John Domingue:  Joint presentation but colleagues having trouble
>   getting on call.
>   ... Date is important - accreditation is almost like an event.
> Kim Hamilton Duffy: Voip noise
>   ... Certain credentials have a lifespan.
>   ... Now, to get into talk - going to overview our work at open
>   u.  we have been looking at blockchain accreditation.
>   ... This is a set of highlights of our activities, especially
>   around covid-19
> Phil Long: @John D's comment is important about a date as in most
>   higher ed achievements they are in a defined context based on
>   when they entered a degree pathway. The rules for achievements
>   are bound by the contract at the time of their declared major.
>   ... Slide 1 - there is a URL to our main web site.
> Allan Third:
>
> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1q8mDa9QjSTirtZxiTVm6p83_6N3rYXKaT_drntzBTrs/
> John Domingue:
>
> https://docs.google.com/presentation/d/1q8mDa9QjSTirtZxiTVm6p83_6N3rYXKaT_drntzBTrs/edit?usp=sharing
>   ... Slide 2 - overview of content
>   ... We have a strong belief in social justice.  'open' means
>   you don't need any existing quals.
>   ... Some students have studied for a decade.  Something like
>   20K disabled.
>   ... Slide 3 - teaching at scale
>   ... We have a Free learning platform
> Phil Long: If you are not speaking (e.g., typing) please mute
>   your mic.
>   ... we founded a mooc with 10 million registered learners.
>   ... we co-produce a lot of radio and tv programs with BSc.
>   ... Slide 4 - lifelong learning
>   ... small chunks of learning supported by accreditation
>   ... Slide 5 - handing to Allan third
> Allan Third:  Move to decentralization is important
>   ... solid is a linked data platform started by Tim Berners lee.
>   ... turns web applications into views on data
>   ... Data is held by individual
>   ... Slide 6
>   ... You keep your data in data pods.  you permit applications
>   to access your data to support what you want rather than what the
>   application wants
>   ... The linked data platform, solid concept, is linked data
>   focused and friendly
>   ... See a lot of discussion about personal data.  go to slide 7
>   ... You can gain value from personal data but may have
>   incentive to change it, to edit it.  if other people are going to
>   give you value based on your personal data, you have to be able
>   to verify it.
>   ... you should be able to access and host it but also prove
>   that the qualifications you derive are valid
>   ... this is why we have been looking at blockchain to show your
>   proofs haven't been edited
>   ... Quals and work history, cv - services can be built on top.
>   ... Can prove to others that you haven't tampered with vc.
>   ... slide 9 - generic architecture - all purpose personal data
>   store.  using solid to store data, blockchains to prove with VCs.
>    Implement VC model on top of solid architecture.
>   ... Pass to alex
> Alexander Mikroyannidis:  Will present one of our most recent
>   projects
> Loïc Jeannin: @Kimhd: I'm already muted, that's interesting
>   ... slide 11 - creation, piloting and evaluation of
>   decentralized solutions for quals.
>   ... ten partners - academic orgs and gov agencies.
>   ... slide 12 - pilots
>   ... slide 13 - lifelong learning pilot led by OU
>   ... slide 14 - main stakeholders
>   ... slide 15 main use case - personal portfolio of learner
>   ... slide 16 Recommendations based on learner's skills
>   ... Slide 18 Scoping landscape, understanding needs,
>   consultation workshops
>   ... Slide 19 Findings
> Phil Long: +Q to mention is the personal eportfolio a generic
>   analogy to a digital wallet?
>   ... We are now moving on to next phase.  Developing
>   decentralized solutions for lifelong learner
> John Domingue:  Skills are important.  people study to improve
>   job or get a job.
>   ... There is a new eurpean standard that represents set number
>   of hours of learning.
>   ... Want to produce new accreditation for computing
>   ... There may be a mismatch in skills
>   ... Competence shows that a person can carry out work without
>   supervision
>   ... Slide 21
>   ... Slide 22
>   ... Slide 23 Gateway Descriptions
>   ... slide 24 Site for Gateway Badges
>   ... Slide 25 Gateway Badge Alignments
> Niaz Chowdhury:  Presenting covid 19 system
>   ... Slide 26 Covid-19 Antibody test / vaccination certification
>   ... Builds on prior work, wanted to develop a smart phone app
>   ... Slide 27 Timeline of Antibody Test / Vac Certification
> Kim Hamilton Duffy: All: apologies that I got this session
>   started late. Feel free to drop while we wrap up
> Kim Hamilton Duffy: I'm having a hard time hearing the current
>   speaker
>   ... Slide 29
>   ... Slide 33 - Main contributions
>   ... We want to have a decentralized privacy preserving
>   platform.
>   ... We have been using our system for real students in UK.
>   ... Our components are SOLID - to give learners control over
>   data, including anayltics.
>   ... Started using open badges now using VC.
>   ... Use hashes on blockchain for verification
> Kim Hamilton Duffy:  Slide 19 - question from Phil Long, is
>   portfolio like wallet?
> John Domingue:  Portfolio is layer over SOLID
> Phil Long: Sorry - hung up before I could get the question out.
>   I'll follow up with John D. separately.
>   ... Slide 15 - semantic matching between skills you have and
>   skills we are mining from jobs
> Laura Jaurequi: Thank you!
> Mano Ramachandran: @Kimhd thank you :)
>
>
>