- From: Moses Ma <moses.ma@futurelabconsulting.com>
- Date: Sun, 17 Nov 2019 11:11:49 -0800
- To: Stephen Curran <swcurran@cloudcompass.ca>, Manu Sporny <msporny@digitalbazaar.com>
- Cc: "W3C Credentials CG (Public List)" <public-credentials@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <455c2ec7-8433-433b-9a10-687b344c5390@Moses-iPad-Pro-105>
I use Zoom, but I can’t figure out how to turn on the auto transcription function. 😁 - Moses Ma | FutureLab Consulting Inc moses.ma@futurelabconsulting.com | moses@ngenven.com v +1.415.952.7888 (tel:+1.415.952.7888) | m +1.415.568.1068 (tel:+1.415.568.1068) | skype mosesma > > On Nov 17, 2019 at 9:46 AM, <Stephen Curran (mailto:swcurran@cloudcompass.ca)> wrote: > > > > Interesting arguments, and the accessibility is the one that resonates. Thanks for taking the time to send them. I'm hoping that you take that email and put it in a document for others dumb enough to start this conversation again. If you do, please add what it is that IRC brings to this vs. any other in-conference chat system (like the one in Zoom, for example). > > I don't see that the "missing" features listed are actual requirements but rather as ways to keep things working as they have in the good old days. Even a queue management protocol is available in Zoom. As long as you come out of a meeting with a recording (voice and the completely unnecessary :-) screen sharing), transcript and chat log, each in a non-proprietary format, you should be good, right? Bonus points if the in-call experience is great. > > > > On the more serious topic of accessibility, I'd be interested in the feedback of those with real experience. Given that Zoom is a mainstream tool that people in the software industry today encounter on a daily basis, and SIP/IRC tools here are unknown to all classes of users other than those already in this group, which is more accessible? And which is going to be more accessible tomorrow? > > > > > My overall point is that the system is a not insignificant barrier to participation from a broader populace. > > No response needed, we've both made our points. While I would love to see a change, I'm good to end this discussion on a "we disagree" basis. > > > On Sat, Nov 16, 2019 at 6:37 PM Manu Sporny <msporny@digitalbazaar.com (mailto:msporny@digitalbazaar.com)> wrote: > > > On 11/16/19 5:15 PM, Stephen Curran wrote: > > > Yup - I know you've had to deal with that question before - my > > > apologizes. I just can't figure out the motivation to stay with > > > this. So two more questions, if you would indulge me: > > > > > > 1. What part of the service must be open source? > > > > Ideally, all of it. Or at least it should use open standards for all > > parts. The issue is vendor lock in. A number of years ago, Skype was all > > the rage and we were having this same discussion. Now it's Zoom. The > > issue is that some poor sap has to write the software and when people > > decide to jump from one proprietary vendor to another, all of the > > software needs to be rewritten to match the new proprietary APIs. > > > > > From that list, Zoom (and others) does all that except it's not open > > > source. > > > > Ehh, Zoom also doesn't do the following things on the list: > > > > * Bridges to IRC for control > > * Does queue management > > * Automatically records/archives/uploads IRC logs > > > > It's just a simple matter of programming to write something that does > > those things and integrates into Zoom... and of course, someone would > > have to volunteer to pick up the cost for the Zoom account to host/run > > the meetings. Digital Bazaar has been doing that for the past decade or > > so, and we'd welcome someone else picking up the maintenance and > > operations costs :). > > > > So, if someone would like to put in the work (and pick up the cost), I'm > > sure the group might consider it... especially since we have a fall back > > solution now w/ PBX/SIP/IRC. In the very worst case, we can fall back to > > what we're doing today (which is why I think Zoom could be an option). > > > > > The functions listed would be done slightly differently in some > > > cases, but every one of them is supported today. After the recording > > > and chat log is captured and put into github, etc. does the call > > > management system matter? > > > > It does, and I'll explain why below. > > > > > 2. When is the existing system going to be upgraded to support > > > screen sharing? > > > > > > I suspect that might take even longer to the existing system than > > > adding the features you list. I'm certain that eventually, the need > > > for that feature will overcome the argument against staying with the > > > current system. > > > > I don't find screen sharing that compelling of a feature. Yes, super > > useful for demos, sharing slide decks, etc... but most of the decisions > > made in the standards realm don't require screen sharing... I mean, we > > built the Internet and Web to where it is today without screen sharing. > > > > I will grant that it's useful every now and then, but keep in mind that > > Adrian's recent presentation to the group was just as easily > > accomplished by sharing the slide deck before the call (which is good > > form so that everyone has a copy) and then going through it calling out > > slide numbers so folks can go at their own pace. > > > > > I gather this is a W3C requirement? > > > > Since we're a Community Group, we can run the calls however we'd like as > > long as we're keeping the IPR clean. > > > > That said, there is one argument against Zoom that isn't easily cast > > aside... and that is that what you're suggesting we use it for > > marginalizes people with accessibility needs. > > > > The reason we largely use open standards and text to communicate is that > > it's easily converted into forms that people with accessibility needs > > can use to engage. Text to speech is vital for people that can't see, > > and multi-modal presentations are so incredibly challenging when you > > can't see but can hear, or you can't hear, but you can see. > > > > To help illustrate the problem, the next time someone starts screen > > sharing, shut your monitor off and just listen to what they're saying... > > and then interrupt them every time they try to convey something by > > highlighting the screen, or circling a part of the screen with their > > mouse, or saying "so, as you can see on the left...". Your desire to > > interrupt, or just stay silent and see if you can figure out what > > they're saying with other context, will lead to a certain uneasiness > > leaving you at a disadvantage wrt. the discussion. > > > > ... and that's the real problem with screen sharing... it lacks > > affordances and metadata that's necessary to make it accessible to > > people with certain accessibility needs. > > > > The Web is for all, and W3C has a mandate to ensure that it builds and > > uses systems that are broadly accessible. That means using open > > standards and making accessibility mandatory. > > > > I haven't heard the W3C Accessible Platform Architectures WG take on > > using Zoom for screen sharing at W3C meetings, but if you're game for > > proposing it, I'll bring my popcorn along for the show. :P > > > > So, I guess what I'm trying to say, is that suggesting that we use a > > proprietary system with questionable accessibility characteristics and a > > mode of communication that marginalizes certain people with > > accessibility needs is unlikely to be seen in a positive light by folks > > that are trying to build an open Web for all. > > > > """ > > The power of the Web is in its universality. > > Access by everyone regardless of disability is an essential aspect. > > """ > > > > -- Tim Berners-Lee > > > > """ > > Access to information and communications technologies, including the > > Web, is a basic human right. > > """ > > > > -- UN Convention on the Rights of Persons with Disabilities > > > > https://www.w3.org/standards/webdesign/accessibility > > > > -- manu > > > > -- > > Manu Sporny (skype: msporny, twitter: manusporny) > > Founder/CEO - Digital Bazaar, Inc. > > blog: Veres One Decentralized Identifier Blockchain Launches > > https://tinyurl.com/veres-one-launches > > > > > > -- > > > > > > > > > Stephen Curran > Principal, Cloud Compass Computing, Inc. (C3I) > Technical Governance Board Member - Sovrin Foundation (sovrin.org) > > > > Schedule a Meeting: https://calendly.com/swcurran > > > > > > > > >
Received on Sunday, 17 November 2019 19:12:01 UTC