Re: 235 on styles and fonts

Hello,

We already discussed that the lower level headings are incredibly hard to
read. We are specifically avoiding them as a result. I suggest we put this
on the list of places that COGA needs to engage.

Michael,

Can you tell us who we talk to in order to engage with the TR style updates?

Thank you,

Rachael

On Thu, Feb 18, 2021 at 10:25 AM Michael Cooper <cooper@w3.org> wrote:

> I can help with the process aspects of this. A few things to be aware of:
> 1) the TR styles are updated once per year at most, after a review process,
> meaning it could take up to 2 years for changes to show up. 2) Major
> changes to styles that impact all users may not be supported. I'd encourage
> exploring a personalization approach, which might include adding a
> "customize style" widget to TR pages, rather than redo the styles globally
> given the variety of preferences.
>
> Michael
> On 17/02/2021 12:01 p.m., Rain Michaels wrote:
>
> I'm also not seeing the linked issue for fonts, but I am very much in
> favor of discussing this and perhaps suggesting a change to the W3C styles.
> This sounds like a pretty big feat, and I'd be willing to take
> responsibility for it if someone more seasoned is willing to guide me
> through the process.
>
> As an individual who struggles with visual reading, I have always
> personally had a lot of difficulty with default browser styles across the
> board, and also have long struggled with these very documents on the W3C
> site. Challenges:
>
>    - The font itself (largely because of the letter spacing)
>    - The line height of the font (far too tight)
>
> The advantage of the current style is that it uses "sans-serif" instead of
> a specific font, which means that any user who has taken time to customize
> their default browser fonts will get their individual preference instead of
> the default of helvetica or arial. Unfortunately, very few people who might
> benefit from this know that this is something they can do, and this doesn't
> resolve the line height issue.
>
> We know that increased line height supports users with reading
> disabilities because it makes it easier to track line to line. We also know
> that increased letter spacing can help (which is also not something the
> user can set in browser preferences).
>
> What we *do not know* is which fonts are going to be easiest for an
> individual, as this is highly personal and rather learned. I've known
> individuals with dyslexia who cannot read Arial, which is largely touted as
> the best standard font for supporting readers with dyslexia. I've also
> spoken with individuals with dyslexia who prefer Times New Roman, a serif
> font largely considered bad for individuals with dyslexia, simply because
> it is the font they lived with through school and now find most familiar.
>
> That said, I typically use Poppins for preparing materials for individuals
> that I work and codesign with who have cognitive disabilities because it is
> a nice wide font that uses the a with no hat instead of the a with a hat. I
> have yet to have anyone tell me that Poppins is challenging for them, and
> it is a font that I often use as a default for my own documents because I
> find it easier to read, as well.
>
> The COGA documents on supporting users with dyslexia already give a lot of
> this guidance, and so it may be worth recommending that the W3C styles be
> changed (even if not in the near term) to better match this guidance.
>
> Rain
>
> On Wed, Feb 17, 2021 at 7:57 AM Kinney, Kris Anne <kakinney@ets.org>
> wrote:
>
>> Is there a linked issue referring to the fonts?
>>
>>
>>
>> I don’t see any reference to the fonts used in the issue, I only see a
>> question on the consistency of the formatting of the list items through the
>> document.    Am I missing a piece?
>>
>>
>>
>> Thanks,
>>
>> Kris Anne
>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Kris Anne Kinney, CPACC
>>
>> Accessibility Specialist
>>
>> 609-734-1466 <(609)%20734-1466>
>>
>>
>>
>> The only thing worse than being blind is having sight with no vision.  ~
>> Helen Keller
>>
>>
>>
>> Have a request for an accessibility review?  Please submit an Accessibility
>> Work Request
>> <https://etsorg1.sharepoint.com/teams/rd/a11y/Lists/Accessiblity%20Work%20Requests/active.aspx> on
>> SharePoint.
>>
>>
>>
>> *From: *Michael Cooper <cooper@w3.org>
>> *Date: *Wednesday, February 17, 2021 at 10:32 AM
>> *To: *Lisa Seeman <lisa1seeman@gmail.com>, public-cognitive-a11y-tf <
>> public-cognitive-a11y-tf@w3.org>
>> *Subject: *Re: 235 on styles and fonts
>>
>> I'm not sure about the context of this question, but if it's about the TR
>> version of content usable, no, we can't change the font, it's part of the
>> W3C styles that we can't override. Issues with the W3C styles should be
>> filed in https://github.com/w3c/tr-design
>> <https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Ftr-design&data=04%7C01%7Ckakinney%40ets.org%7Ca5c0deca647f47526e4008d8d3590ea2%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C637491727210912463%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=A1ieMPfHK4VkgvzewcPageKOC7maBN%2FBg9z%2FryImU08%3D&reserved=0>.
>> Michael
>>
>> On 17/02/2021 6:24 a.m., Lisa Seeman wrote:
>>
>> Hi Folks
>>
>> Issue 235
>> <https://nam01.safelinks.protection.outlook.com/?url=https%3A%2F%2Fgithub.com%2Fw3c%2Fcoga%2Fissues%2F235&data=04%7C01%7Ckakinney%40ets.org%7Ca5c0deca647f47526e4008d8d3590ea2%7C0ba6e9b760b34fae92f37e6ddd9e9b65%7C0%7C0%7C637491727210922450%7CUnknown%7CTWFpbGZsb3d8eyJWIjoiMC4wLjAwMDAiLCJQIjoiV2luMzIiLCJBTiI6Ik1haWwiLCJXVCI6Mn0%3D%7C2000&sdata=8y%2FVEsRH%2BOg7xboXIvPOCGrKXMMu0%2Bf%2BOJJMbwuVQ%2BU%3D&reserved=0>
>> on styles, has pointed out that the fonts are not easy to read.
>>
>>
>>
>> I hate to have this conversation but what font do we prefer?
>>
>> I  suggest the browser default. (Michael is that possible)
>>
>> All the best
>>
>> Lisa
>>
>>
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-- 
Rachael Montgomery, PhD
Director, Accessible Community
rachael@accessiblecommunity.org

"I will paint this day with laughter;
I will frame this night in song."
 - Og Mandino