- From: <zimmermann@accesstechnologiesgroup.com>
- Date: Fri, 29 Apr 2022 15:25:38 +0200
- To: "'Eric Eggert'" <mail@yatil.net>
- Cc: <public-auth-trans-de@w3.org>
- Message-ID: <07a101d85bcc$9e3885b0$daa99110$@accesstechnologiesgroup.com>
Hi Eric, your suggestion on Issue 2.1.2 No keyboard trap #64 < <https://github.com/outline-rocks/wcag/discussions/64> https://github.com/outline-rocks/wcag/discussions/64> looks okay to me. But I would prefer “Umschalttaste” rather than “Hilfstaste”. I think that is be better understandable for a broader audience. However, I sustain my opposition to Issue [Translation of "assistive technology" #63]( <https://github.com/outline-rocks/wcag/discussions/63> https://github.com/outline-rocks/wcag/discussions/63). Best regards, Gottfried Von: Eric Eggert <mail@yatil.net> Gesendet: Freitag, 22. April 2022 18:44 An: zimmermann@accesstechnologiesgroup.com Cc: public-auth-trans-de@w3.org Betreff: Re: German Translation WCAG 2.1 - Disapproval Hi Gottfried, Issue 2.1.2 No keyboard trap #64 < <https://github.com/outline-rocks/wcag/discussions/64> https://github.com/outline-rocks/wcag/discussions/64> : * It is not true that the English text is as unclear as the German translation. The English term “unmodified arrow or tab keys“ can be generally understood on the background of the common term „modifier keys” (e.g. see Wikipedia entry on “Modifier key” < <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modifier_key> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modifier_key> ). But the German word “nicht modifizierte Taste” does not have such a common understanding and it is completely unclear what it means to a lay person that is not deep into WCAG. I looked into this again today (after being under the weather for a few weeks), and I think I came up with an agreeable solution you can find in the <https://outline-rocks.github.io/wcag/guidelines/#keine-tastaturfalle> working draft. Apparently the German translation for “Modifier Key” is “Hilfstaste” according to Wikipedia. <https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tastenkombination#Hilfstasten_f%C3%BCr_Tastenkombinationen> https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tastenkombination#Hilfstasten_für_Tastenkombinationen With that, I changed the sentence in the following way: Previous version: Wenn der Tastaturfokus durch eine <a>Tastaturschnittstelle</a> auf einen Bestandteil der Seite bewegt werden kann, dann kann der Fokus von diesem Bestandteil weg bewegt werden, indem man nur die Tastaturschnittstelle benutzt; wenn man dazu mehr als nicht modifizierte Pfeil- oder Tabulatortasten oder andere übliche Ausstiegsmethoden benutzen muss, dann wird der Benutzer über die Methode zum Bewegen des Fokus informiert. Now: Wenn der Tastaturfokus durch eine <a>Tastaturschnittstelle</a> auf einen Bestandteil der Seite bewegt werden kann, dann kann der Fokus von diesem Bestandteil weg bewegt werden, indem man nur die Tastaturschnittstelle benutzt; wenn man dazu mehr als nicht durch Hilfstasten (wie z.B. Umschalt-, Steuerungs- oder Befehlstaste) modifizierte Pfeil- oder Tabulatortasten oder andere übliche Ausstiegsmethoden benutzen muss, dann wird der Benutzer über die Methode zum Bewegen des Fokus informiert. Basically, I added “durch Hilfstasten (wie z.B. Umschalt-, Steuerungs- oder Befehlstaste)” and I think this is a modification that is consistent with the original 2.0 translation. Regarding Issue [Translation of "assistive technology" #63]( <https://github.com/outline-rocks/wcag/discussions/63> https://github.com/outline-rocks/wcag/discussions/63): * You have not provided convincing rationale for using the German word “Technik” rather than “Technologien”. I tried to find the original discussion around this and I have no rationale personally for it. As was pointed out in the discussion above, “Technik” and “Technologie” can be used as synonyms. What I have done to maybe help with this issue without having to rewrite a lot of the existing 2.0 documentation is adding a translators note to the working draft. (Happy for suggestions for better wording, if dealing with this issue in a note like this is agreeable at all.) „Assistierenden Techniken“ in WCAG 2 werden mittlerweile meist als „Assistive Technologien“ bezeichnet. I hope that helps with addressing the issues. 👋 Eric On 24 Mar 2022, at 17:31, <mailto:zimmermann@accesstechnologiesgroup.com> zimmermann@accesstechnologiesgroup.com wrote: Thank you, Eric, for your response. However, I maintain my position on the issues for the following reasons: Regarding Issue Translation of <https://github.com/outline-rocks/wcag/discussions/63> "assistive technology" #63: * You have not provided convincing rationale for using the German word “Technik” rather than “Technologien”. Issue 2.1.2 No keyboard trap #64 <https://github.com/outline-rocks/wcag/discussions/64> : * It is not true that the English text is as unclear as the German translation. The English term “unmodified arrow or tab keys“ can be generally understood on the background of the common term „modifier keys” (e.g. see Wikipedia entry on “Modifier key” <https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modifier_key> ). But the German word “nicht modifizierte Taste” does not have such a common understanding and it is completely unclear what it means to a lay person that is not deep into WCAG. Best regards, Gottfried Von: Eric Eggert <mail@yatil.net <mailto:mail@yatil.net> > Gesendet: Mittwoch, 23. März 2022 09:49 An: zimmermann@accesstechnologiesgroup.com <mailto:zimmermann@accesstechnologiesgroup.com> Cc: public-auth-trans-de@w3.org <mailto:public-auth-trans-de@w3.org> Betreff: Re: German Translation WCAG 2.1 - Disapproval Hi Gottfried, Here’s the rational from the translator’s views for these non-implemented issues: The AGWG have, as originators of WCAG, made clear that consistency over WCAG versions is important. This means for them that even wording changes between different versions are impossible, with some very minor exceptions (mostly editorial errata). * Issue Translation of < <https://github.com/outline-rocks/wcag/discussions/63> https://github.com/outline-rocks/wcag/discussions/63> "assistive technology" #63 * This goes back to a translation error of WCAG 2.0. I do not accept that we must carry over a wrong translation of "assistive technology" into WCAG 2.1. The self-imposed restriction that the translation of existing passages from WCAG 2.0 must not change is unnecessary and not helpful for the subject matter. As translators and practitioners, we see a challenge for documentation that currently refers to WCAG 2.0 wording in this context. Every piece of advice would need to be updated to reflect the new wording, or it would need to include both wordings. The translation of assistive technology as “assistierende Techniken” was a WCAG 2.0 translation consensus reached as German speaking countries have different names. The discussion only refers to sources in Germany for the impetus of the change request where “assistive Technologien” is prevalent. However, when looking in other German speaking countries, like Austria and Switzerland, “assistierende Technologien” is very common: <https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22assistierende+technologien%22> https://duckduckgo.com/?q=%22assistierende+technologien%22 In addition, as mentioned in the above linked thread, the term is broader in WCAG and does not only focus on “Hilfsmittel” but also user agent functionality that can be used to make the web accessible. In aggregate, and as no other party, especially from the affected communities outside of Germany, raised or supported the issue, the translators decided to keep the consensus from the WCAG 2.0 translation and hence the status quo. * Issue 2.1.2 No keyboard trap #64 < <https://github.com/outline-rocks/wcag/discussions/64> https://github.com/outline-rocks/wcag/discussions/64> * My proposal has not been accommodated, and there is no discussion or reason provided for that. Again, this is a translation error of WCAG 2.0 which should be corrected. The proposal has not been accommodated because it is a word-for-word translation from the English source which is also ambiguous in that regard. The proposed solution for the issue was to add a note to the WCAG success criterion that would only exist in the translation. The translators are cautious to add interpretation to the translation, and what “unmodified” means is not explained in WCAG or the Understanding documents. We would encourage the AG Working Group to clarify the use of “unmodified” keys in the Understanding document for the SC 2.1.2. The proposed note names Control, Shift, Alt, and AltGr (the latter not existing on most international and many non-Windows keyboards, which probably would not make it accessibility supported) as examples for “modifier keys”, but from the source material (WCAG), this is unfortunately not clear. In light of all this, the translators decided to carry over the uncertainty from the source document. (My apologies for not answering in the GitHub discussion earlier, I was under the impression I had answered, but this must have slipped through.) 👋 Eric On 23 Mar 2022, at 8:52, zimmermann@accesstechnologiesgroup.com <mailto:zimmermann@accesstechnologiesgroup.com> wrote: Dear W3C, this is a note regarding the proposed German translation of WCAG 2.1 at https://outline-rocks.github.io/wcag/translations/CAT-WCAG21-DE-20211004/. I hereby disapprove this translation due to two issues that I have raised and that were not sufficiently accommodated. The two issues were discussed in German and are documented on https://github.com/outline-rocks/wcag/discussions: * Issue Translation of <https://github.com/outline-rocks/wcag/discussions/63> "assistive technology" #63 * This goes back to a translation error of WCAG 2.0. I do not accept that we must carry over a wrong translation of “assistive technology” into WCAG 2.1. The self-imposed restriction that the translation of existing passages from WCAG 2.0 must not change is unnecessary and not helpful for the subject matter. * Issue 2.1.2 No keyboard trap #64 <https://github.com/outline-rocks/wcag/discussions/64> * My proposal has not been accommodated, and there is no discussion or reason provided for that. Again, this is a translation error of WCAG 2.0 which should be corrected. Best regards, Gottfried Zimmermann Invited expert of W3C APA wg -- outline Consulting Sandra Kallmeyer und Eric Eggert GbR Gutenbergstr. 12 57537 Wissen GERMANY USt-IdNr.: DE275406670 info@outline.rocks <mailto:info@outline.rocks> www.outline.rocks <http://www.outline.rocks> Spielregeln <http://outline.rocks/spielregeln.php> http://outline.rocks/spielregeln.php -- outline Consulting Sandra Kallmeyer und Eric Eggert GbR Gutenbergstr. 12 57537 Wissen GERMANY USt-IdNr.: DE275406670 <mailto:info@outline.rocks> info@outline.rocks <http://www.outline.rocks> www.outline.rocks Spielregeln <http://outline.rocks/spielregeln.php> http://outline.rocks/spielregeln.php
Received on Friday, 29 April 2022 13:26:01 UTC