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RE: 48 hour Call For Consensus regarding Resolutions from the May 19, 2016 ARIA Working Group meeting

From: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>
Date: Thu, 26 May 2016 16:02:53 +0000
To: Rich Schwerdtfeger <richschwer@gmail.com>, Fred Esch <fesch@us.ibm.com>
CC: Matt King <a11ythinker@gmail.com>, "public-aria-admin@w3.org" <public-aria-admin@w3.org>, "Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group" <public-aria@w3.org>
Message-ID: <SN1PR0301MB1981CA5995EFC8284B2EA77A98410@SN1PR0301MB1981.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
Is role=treeitem a composite in the spec?

I’m not getting where the difficulty here is, you can already build an accessible tree that includes spawned controls accessibly by seperating the focusable role=treeitem node from the control being spawned, even if this is inline.

Here is a working example that works across both desktop and mobile:
http://whatsock.com/tsg/Coding%20Arena/ARIA%20Menus/Variation%20ARIA%20Tree%20With%20Right%20Click/demo.htm


This has an attached right-click ARIA Menu attached to all of the expanded leaf nodes, that works from the keyboard using Shift+F10 and the Applications key, and by using the iOS long-click method by tap-and-hold for several seconds to open the same menu.

If something is not a composite in the spec, why are user agents expected to support focusable children in the accessibility tree?

If you look at the accessibility tree in Chrome, you won’t see anything but treeitem nodes, every other role type is stripped out.




Bryan Garaventa
Accessibility Fellow
SSB BART Group, Inc.
bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com
415.624.2709 (o)
www.SSBBartGroup.com

From: Rich Schwerdtfeger [mailto:richschwer@gmail.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 26, 2016 8:45 AM
To: Fred Esch <fesch@us.ibm.com>
Cc: Matt King <a11ythinker@gmail.com>; public-aria-admin@w3.org; Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group <public-aria@w3.org>
Subject: Re: 48 hour Call For Consensus regarding Resolutions from the May 19, 2016 ARIA Working Group meeting

I agree, that is the problem. We only have a tree widget structure. Saying that you can’t go into a treeitem is as much a non-start as not being able to go into a grid cell.

I also don’t agree with James Nurthen’s statement that putting a button inside a tree item “will not work”.

-  You can give it a tab index of “-1” and you can have a keyboard shortcut to activate it.
-  You could have a mode that puts you in the tree item (like we do with grids) and navigate in the tree item.

This is all JavaScript and it is completely doable.

Sorry, I don’t buy the arguments requiring the descendants to be presentational.

Rich

Rich Schwerdtfeger



On May 26, 2016, at 7:35 AM, Fred Esch <fesch@us.ibm.com<mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com>> wrote:

Matt,

Trees are the only structure we have for trees. Treegrids are tables with twisties, not a tree. Here are some examples of treegrids (from googling treegrid).
http://www.treegrid.com/Grid

http://dev.sencha.com/deploy/ext-4.0.1/examples/tree/treegrid.html

http://maxazan.github.io/jquery-treegrid/

https://dojotoolkit.org/reference-guide/1.10/dojox/grid/TreeGrid.html#dojox-grid-treegrid


If I need a tree of widgets (and I don't want them laid out like a table) what do I use?
Regards,

Fred Esch
Watson, IBM, W3C Accessibility

<0E748335.gif>

Watson Release Management and Quality



<graycol.gif>Matt King ---05/25/2016 09:54:21 PM---James, I tested a listbox with 2 options, each option containing a link, a heading, a paragraph, and

From:  Matt King <a11ythinker@gmail.com<mailto:a11ythinker@gmail.com>>
To:  "'Bryan Garaventa'" <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com<mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>>, "'James Nurthen'" <james.nurthen@oracle.com<mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com>>, <public-aria-admin@w3.org<mailto:public-aria-admin@w3.org>>
Cc:  "'Rich Schwerdtfeger'" <richschwer@gmail.com<mailto:richschwer@gmail.com>>, Fred Esch/Arlington/IBM@IBMUS
Date:  05/25/2016 09:54 PM
Subject:  RE: 48 hour Call For Consensus regarding Resolutions from the May 19, 2016 ARIA Working Group meeting
________________________________



James, I tested a listbox with 2 options, each option containing a link, a heading, a paragraph, and a toolbar with 2 buttons.

I tested in Firefox, IE, Chrome, and Safari with JAWS, NVDA, and VoiceOver.

We have about 80+% presentational implementation. The 20% that is not presentational is a screen reader disaster. Test result details below.

No one should consider putting semantic elements inside options or treeitems and expect them to be presented as anything other than text, even if focus moves inside the option. And moving focus inside an option is an author error because option is not a composite and the allowed content for option is text.

By design, chilcren of options and treeitems are already presentational. This is how ARIA 1.0 set them up. And, we should finish the job so we can clean up the 20% mess.

The good news is, that if you do a 1/1 switch out to grid roles, it works on all platforms in all browsers. Screen readers that do automatic mode switching don’t yet switch modes exactly right all the time, but we can get that fixed. So, we have a robust solution for the use cases that James and Fred have raised.

In the long term, I would not support changing treeitem and option to composites. That could really mess up their current use cases. If people are somehow not satisfied with the grid approaches, which do work very well, I would instead propose that we add listview and treeview roles that have composite child elements. That way, the screen readers will be able to render them in a manner completely different from listbox and tree-- more like grid and treegrid.

Test Results:

Chrom/Mac/VO:
When reading, no semantics revealed. When interacting with the option, the text is readable but it is stringified.
When tabbing to contained link and buttons: No semantics revealed. Focusable elements are silent. The ffirst time focus enters the option, the entire option is read instead of the label of the focused element. Current focus reports the text of the option for all contained elements.

Safari/Mac/VO:
When reading, no semantics revealed. When interacting with the option, the text is not present.
When tabbing to contained link and buttons: No semantics revealed. Focusable elements are silent. The ffirst time focus enters the option, the entire option is read instead of the label of the focused element. Current focus reports the text of the option for all contained elements.

Chrome/Win/JAWS/NVDA:
When reading, no semantics revealed. Stringified text of the selected option is revealed. Selected state is revealed.
When tabbing to contained link and buttons: No semantics revealed. Focusable elements are silent. The ffirst time focus enters the option, the entire option is read instead of the label of the focused element. Current focus reports the text of the option for all contained elements.

Firefox/Win/JAWS:
When reading before listbox has contained focus, The link, heading , and paragraph text are stringified for the selected option and the selected state is revealed. The button labels are omitted.
When reading after listbox has contained focus, sometimes it is different: the link is revealed as a link. The heading and paragraph are stringified on a separate line. The select state is revealed. The button labels are omitted.
When tabbing to the link and buttons, The link is read as a link but its label is replaced with the listbox label. The buttons are read as buttons.

Firefox/Win/NVDA:
When reading in document review, nothing is read; NVDA just says list.
When reading in object review, it is possible to dig into the document hierarchy and find the semantic elements.
When tabbing to the link and buttons: the elements are read with their labels and roles, but the listbox context is not announced.

IE/JAWS:
when reading, the link, heading, and paragraph are stringified, but the toolbar is revealed normally except that the buttons are read with “listbox item selected” at the beginning of each label.
When tabbing to the link and buttons, The link is read as a link but its label is replaced with the listbox label. The buttons are read as buttons.

IE/NVDA: none of the ARIA is recognized; read as HTML.

Except for the odd Firefox behavior, which is technically a bug, This all makes sense. Given the mappings, it is exactly how it should be.

Matt

From: Bryan Garaventa [mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 3:04 PM
To: James Nurthen <james.nurthen@oracle.com<mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com>>; Matt King <a11ythinker@gmail.com<mailto:a11ythinker@gmail.com>>; public-aria-admin@w3.org<mailto:public-aria-admin@w3.org>
Cc: 'Rich Schwerdtfeger' <richschwer@gmail.com<mailto:richschwer@gmail.com>>; 'Fred Esch' <fesch@us.ibm.com<mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com>>
Subject: RE: 48 hour Call For Consensus regarding Resolutions from the May 19, 2016 ARIA Working Group meeting

By this logic, it is also acceptable to put sliders inside of role=option nodes too, as well as tablist containers with dynamic tabs, radio buttons, links, checkboxes, trees, nested Listboxes, and comboboxes. And yes, I’ve seen developers do these things.

The option role is not a composite widget, this is what it says in the spec. It does not support focusable children.

So why is this acceptable or desirable when it goes against the spec and it causes unlimited accessibility issues?


Bryan Garaventa
Accessibility Fellow
SSB BART Group, Inc.
bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com<mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>
415.624.2709 (o)
www.SSBBartGroup.com<http://www.ssbbartgroup.com/>

From: James Nurthen [mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com]
Sent: Wednesday, May 25, 2016 12:41 PM
To: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com<mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>>; Matt King <a11ythinker@gmail.com<mailto:a11ythinker@gmail.com>>; public-aria-admin@w3.org<mailto:public-aria-admin@w3.org>
Cc: 'Rich Schwerdtfeger' <richschwer@gmail.com<mailto:richschwer@gmail.com>>; 'Fred Esch' <fesch@us.ibm.com<mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com>>
Subject: Re: 48 hour Call For Consensus regarding Resolutions from the May 19, 2016 ARIA Working Group meeting

I disagree that this is how they currently work.
Currently all the child nodes of option are exposed into the accessibility tree so, if navigation is allowed to them (via a keyboard switch for example), it is still possible for their correct role/state information to be accessed by AT.
I fear that adding children are presentational to option will encorage browsers to remove these nodes from the accessibility tree which will break all kinds of things. Can someone clarify if child nodes of something with children presenational = true would still be in the accessibility tree as they are today? If these children are not in the accessibility tree then I object to this change in ARIA 1.1. I am happy to revisit it in the ARIA 2.0 timeline.
Regards,
James

On 5/25/2016 12:16 PM, Bryan Garaventa wrote:
+1

I am in favor of leaving role=option and role=treeitem in this list for the same reasons that Matt outlined here. This is literally how they already work in ATs and in browsers, so the change is editorial.

If some want to expand role=option and/or role=treeitem in the future to be composite, then that could be a 2.0 proposal.


Bryan Garaventa
Accessibility Fellow
SSB BART Group, Inc.
bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com<mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>
415.624.2709 (o)
www.SSBBartGroup.com<http://www.ssbbartgroup.com/>

From: Matt King [mailto:a11ythinker@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 4:25 PM
To: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com><mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>; 'James Nurthen' <james.nurthen@oracle.com><mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com>; public-aria-admin@w3.org<mailto:public-aria-admin@w3.org>
Cc: 'Rich Schwerdtfeger' <richschwer@gmail.com><mailto:richschwer@gmail.com>; 'Fred Esch' <fesch@us.ibm.com><mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com>
Subject: RE: 48 hour Call For Consensus regarding Resolutions from the May 19, 2016 ARIA Working Group meeting

Fred, Rich, and James,

In practice, the children of option and treeitem elements already behave as if they are presentational. This is true for all roles mapped as inputs except composite inputs and text inputs. However, composite widgets are mapped to desktop GUI components that have well-defined interaction models and text inputs have their own special accessible text interface for rendering the attributes of their content to assistive technologies.
•  Options and treeitems are defined in ARIA as singular input elements. In this way, they are like the other subclasses of input that are not also composite or text, i.e., checkbox, radio, slider, and spinbutton.
•  ARIA maps options and treeitems to desktop GUI components that do not have either semantic or interactive children.
•  Because of the option and treeitem mappings, most assistive technologies do not provide reading modes that work inside of option and treitem elements. They may provide ways of extracting the text, but it is stringafied.
•  There are no standardized interaction models for interacting with content inside of an option or treeitem. Assistive tehcnologies can not provide guidance to users if focus moves inside of an option or treeitem like they can if it moves inside a composite or dialog.

Because option and treeitem have the above attributes but are not formally defined as children presentational true, there is confusion about what assistive technologies are capable of doing with them, how checkers should treat them, and consequently, what authors should be allowed to do with them.

Net: assistive technologies treat option and treeitem the way they do in desktop GUIs because that is how they are mapped. Because of that, all content inside is effectively presentational. Changing that would mean huge changes to ARIA.

Accepting the proposal as written would bring the spec into line with current real-world behaviors and limitations. It will enable us to start fixing problems caused by this confusion.

One of the problems we can fix right away is helping Fred and James make their UIs accessible within the practical constraints of ARIA 1.1.

Please, let’s not continue to compound the problems we already have by removing option and treeitem from this CFC. Including them is extremely valuable to the clarity, consistency, and robustness of both the specification and the authoring practices.

BTW, Fred, one of the reasons I worked so hard on issue 633 to get more flexibility and clarity for grid and dialog is to make reliable accessibility feasible for the types of UIs you described. I think we have the tools we need. They may not be100% optimal, and they fall short of what I originally envisioned, but they are a good step forward for a 1.1 release of the spec.

Matt King

From: Bryan Garaventa [mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 12:14 PM
To: James Nurthen <james.nurthen@oracle.com<mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com>>; public-aria-admin@w3.org<mailto:public-aria-admin@w3.org>
Subject: RE: 48 hour Call For Consensus regarding Resolutions from the May 19, 2016 ARIA Working Group meeting

Can you point to an example of this?

This type of implementation causes so many accessibility issues in JAWS and NVDA and everywhere else that I’ve tested that I flag this as a must-fix author error every time I come across it.

I can’t think of an instance where this is a good idea, because this maps to the same role type as the HTML option element.


Bryan Garaventa
Accessibility Fellow
SSB BART Group, Inc.
bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com<mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>
415.624.2709 (o)
www.SSBBartGroup.com<http://www.ssbbartgroup.com/>

From: James Nurthen [mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 12:02 PM
To: public-aria-admin@w3.org<mailto:public-aria-admin@w3.org>
Subject: Re: 48 hour Call For Consensus regarding Resolutions from the May 19, 2016 ARIA Working Group meeting
I object to option being in this list too (for similar reasons to treeitem).
We currently allow people to jump in and out of an "interaction" mode in order to allow them to interact with the child elements. If children presentational is added AT users will lose that ability.
Regards,
james

On 5/24/2016 10:47 AM, Bryan Garaventa wrote:
That’s fine with me, though I think we will need to have a different proposal to deal with role=treeitem separately.

The problem being that currently no embedded controls within treeitems are accessible, since the role=tree widget is treated as one form field.
E.G
http://whatsock.com/tsg/Coding%20Arena/ARIA%20Trees/Tree%20(External%20XML)/demo.htm
(Reproduceable in Firefox using JAWS and NVDA)

And it’s not clear how anything that is embedded within such controls should be discoverable or even intuitively interacted with.



Bryan Garaventa
Accessibility Fellow
SSB BART Group, Inc.
bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com<mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>
415.624.2709 (o)
www.SSBBartGroup.com<http://www.ssbbartgroup.com/>

From: Rich Schwerdtfeger [mailto:richschwer@gmail.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 9:47 AM
To: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com><mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>
Cc: Fred Esch <fesch@us.ibm.com><mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com>; ARIA Working Group <public-aria-admin@w3.org><mailto:public-aria-admin@w3.org>
Subject: Re: 48 hour Call For Consensus regarding Resolutions from the May 19, 2016 ARIA Working Group meeting

I agree. I sent out what was resolved at the meeting and had the same thoughts but I was not on the call and was going to raise the same exception. We will have the same issues we have with options and lists.

+1 to keeping the proposal minus treeitem.

Rich



Rich Schwerdtfeger

On May 24, 2016, at 10:53 AM, Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com<mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>> wrote:

Currently role=treeitem is not a composite widget, and as such nothing rendered within these containers is accessible. So not including role=treeitem in this list will not solve this problem.


Bryan Garaventa
Accessibility Fellow
SSB BART Group, Inc.
bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com<mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>
415.624.2709 (o)
www.SSBBartGroup.com<http://www.ssbbartgroup.com/>

From: Fred Esch [mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Tuesday, May 24, 2016 4:21 AM
To: Rich Schwerdtfeger <richschwer@gmail.com<mailto:richschwer@gmail.com>>
Cc: ARIA Working Group <public-aria-admin@w3.org<mailto:public-aria-admin@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: 48 hour Call For Consensus regarding Resolutions from the May 19, 2016 ARIA Working Group meeting

Rich,

I would like to see treeitem dropped from the list. No one wants to use treegrid and we see UIs with trees of complex widgets which should naturally use tree style navigation between the them. If we include treeitem in the list then you would not be able to call something a tree, that looks like a tree and you want it to navigate like a tree, if the leaves were complex controls that a user could choose to leave visible. Again, no one will ever call a tree of complex widgets a treegrid when where there is no concept of rows in the layout.

Suggested solutions for a tree that are compatible with treeitem only having presentational children are work arounds such as having the widget appear in a dialog when you click the treeitem. These 'solutions' are not be practical when you have flows, card layouts, or block chains that have branching. We are seeing lots of card layouts, block chains and relationships expressed in web apps that would be negatively impacted by this restriction.
Regards,

Fred Esch
Watson, IBM, W3C Accessibility

<image001.png>

Watson Release Management and Quality



<image002.gif>Rich Schwerdtfeger ---05/23/2016 04:06:45 PM---This is a Call for Consensus (CfC) to the Accessible Rich Internet Applications (ARIA) Working Group

From: Rich Schwerdtfeger <richschwer@gmail.com<mailto:richschwer@gmail.com>>
To: ARIA Working Group <public-aria-admin@w3.org<mailto:public-aria-admin@w3.org>>
Date: 05/23/2016 04:06 PM
Subject: 48 hour Call For Consensus regarding Resolutions from the May 19, 2016 ARIA Working Group meeting
________________________________




This is a Call for Consensus (CfC) to the Accessible Rich Internet Applications (ARIA) Working Group regarding the following resolutions of the ARIA Working group.

1. Add children presentational true to checkbox, menuitem, menuitemcheckbox, menuitemradio, option, radio, spinbutton, switch, tab, and treeitem in response to Issue 1006
The meeting minutes are here: https://www.w3.org/2016/05/19-aria-minutes.html

If you object to this proposal, or have comments concerning it, please respond by replying on list to this message no later than 23:49 (midnight) Boston Time, Wednesday, May 25, 2016.

Regards,

Rich

—
Rich Schwerdtfeger, Email: richschwer@gmail.com<mailto:richschwer@gmail.com>
CTO Accessibility IBM Software: http://www.ibm.com.able<http://www.ibm.com.able/>

The World Wide Web Consortium (W3C), Web Accessibility Initiative (WAI)
Chair, Accessible Rich Internet Applications https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA


Rich Schwerdtfeger





--
Regards, James
<0E203729.gif><http://www.oracle.com/>
James Nurthen | Principal Engineer, Accessibility
Phone: +1 650 506 6781<tel:+1%20650%20506%206781> | Mobile: +1 415 987 1918<tel:+1%20415%20987%201918> | Video: james.nurthen@oracle.com<mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com>
Oracle Corporate Architecture
500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood Cty, CA 94065
<0E211030.gif><http://www.oracle.com/commitment>Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment

--
Regards, James
<0E203729.gif><http://www.oracle.com/>
James Nurthen | Principal Engineer, Accessibility
Phone: +1 650 506 6781<tel:+1%20650%20506%206781> | Mobile: +1 415 987 1918<tel:+1%20415%20987%201918> | Video: james.nurthen@oracle.com<mailto:james.nurthen@oracle.com>
Oracle Corporate Architecture
500 Oracle Parkway | Redwood Cty, CA 94065
<0E211030.gif><http://www.oracle.com/commitment>Oracle is committed to developing practices and products that help protect the environment




Received on Thursday, 26 May 2016 16:03:32 UTC

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