Re: Nested links (not related to children presentational issue in ARIA 1.1)

Fred,

I see a lot of problems with this. First, HTML doesn't have nested links,
so why should SVG if they want to duplicate HTML features?

Second, since there are no nested links in HTML, ATs have no support for
them.

Third, nested links in themselves sound like a bad idea. Where does one
link end, where does the next one start, what's the keyboard model like,
where do clicks go, do we have two tab stops or three (in terms of two
links nested in one another) etc. etc.

But basically, the discussion ends at point 2, if not even point 1.

My suggestion is that SVG should not have nested links. No support for them
in HTML or ATs, and lots of unanswered questions that we didn't have to
deal with in HTML because nested links aren't supported.

Marco


2016-06-23 17:38 GMT+02:00 Fred Esch <fesch@us.ibm.com>:

> Hi Marco,
>
> The question is should nested links be allowed in SVG? Here is a link to
> the git issue <https://github.com/w3c/svgwg/issues/26>. If not, why? Do
> AT have problems with it?...
>
>
> Regards,
>
> Fred Esch
> Watson, IBM, W3C Accessibility
> [image: IBM Watson] Watson Release Management and Quality
>
> [image: Inactive hide details for Marco Zehe ---06/23/2016 10:52:43 AM---I
> did a quick test with the example given, and none of the 3 b]Marco Zehe
> ---06/23/2016 10:52:43 AM---I did a quick test with the example given, and
> none of the 3 browsers I tested (Firefox, Chrome, IE
>
> From: Marco Zehe <mzehe@mozilla.com>
> To: Birkir Gunnarsson <birkir.gunnarsson@deque.com>
> Cc: Shane McCarron <shane@spec-ops.io>, Michael Cooper <cooper@w3.org>,
> Richard Schwerdtfeger <richschwer@gmail.com>, Fred
> Esch/Arlington/IBM@IBMUS, ARIA <public-aria@w3.org>
> Date: 06/23/2016 10:52 AM
> Subject: Re: Nested links (not related to children presentational issue
> in ARIA 1.1)
> ------------------------------
>
>
>
> I did a quick test with the example given, and none of the 3 browsers I
> tested (Firefox, Chrome, IE 11) actually nest the links. They simply
> consider the two links separate entities at the same level, considering the
> second opening a tag the closure of the previous, and ignoring the final
> closing one. There are two accessible objects, and they are not nested.
>
> So in my opinion, there is no indication that browsers, at least on
> Windows, support nested links, they just make one believe so by accounting
> for such obvious author error. So I don't see why we should allow or even
> vote for nested links. As was put forward by Shane, nestee links even
> violate the HTML 5.1 specification. So nothing to duplicate, other than the
> parser accounting for the same nesting error and separating them out into
> separate links at the same level.
>
> Marco
>
>
> 2016-06-23 16:15 GMT+02:00 Birkir Gunnarsson <
> *birkir.gunnarsson@deque.com* <birkir.gunnarsson@deque.com>>:
>
>    Agreed, this constitutes a WCAG 4.1.1 violation for HTML:
>
>    “elements are nested according to their specifications”
>
>    The HTML Nu Validator *https://validator.w3.org/nu/*
>    <https://validator.w3.org/nu/>
>
>    returns 2 errors for a nested link construct.
>
>    <a href=*http://www.apple.com* <http://www.apple.com/>>Apple
>
>    <a href=”*http://www.google.com* <http://www.google.com/>”>Google</a>
>
>    </a>
>
>    “*Error*: Start tag a seen but an element of the same type was already
>    open.”
>
>    And
>
>    *Error*: Stray end tag a.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>    *From:* Shane McCarron [mailto:*shane@spec-ops.io* <shane@spec-ops.io>]
>
> * Sent:* Thursday, June 23, 2016 9:58 AM
> * To:* Michael Cooper <*cooper@w3.org* <cooper@w3.org>>
> * Cc:* Richard Schwerdtfeger <*richschwer@gmail.com*
>    <richschwer@gmail.com>>; Fred Esch <*fesch@us.ibm.com*
>    <fesch@us.ibm.com>>; ARIA <*public-aria@w3.org* <public-aria@w3.org>>
> * Subject:* Re: Nested links (not related to children presentational
>    issue in ARIA 1.1)
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>    On Thu, Jun 23, 2016 at 8:50 AM, Michael Cooper <*cooper@w3.org*
>    <cooper@w3.org>> wrote:
>
>    This thread was started on ARIA Admin, but it should be on the main WG
>    list since it's a technical discussion. Attempting to move it with this
>    message. Michael
>
>
>
>    On 23/06/2016 9:47 AM, Richard Schwerdtfeger wrote:
>    Nested links work in HTML browsers now. I don’t think they should be
>          prohibited in SVG. The closer we align SVG and HTML the better it will be
>          for developers.
>
>
>
>
>    No - they are expressly prohibited.  I mean - a browser might support
>    it, but that behavior is undefined and the content is invalid:
>    *https://www.w3.org/TR/html51/textlevel-semantics.html#elementdef-a*
>    <https://www.w3.org/TR/html51/textlevel-semantics.html#elementdef-a>
>
>    --
>
>    Shane McCarron
>
>    Projects Manager, Spec-Ops
>
>
>
>
>