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RE: Issue with ARIA 1.1 regarding which roles include children presentational = true ?

From: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>
Date: Wed, 13 Jan 2016 18:21:16 +0000
To: Fred Esch <fesch@us.ibm.com>
CC: Birkir Gunnarsson <birkir.gunnarsson@deque.com>, ARIA Working Group <public-aria@w3.org>
Message-ID: <SN1PR0301MB19812620C6F2B682C016739F98CB0@SN1PR0301MB1981.namprd03.prod.outlook.com>
I'm still having trouble envisioning this, can you provide a markup example?

Currently, on Windows in IE11, Firefox, and Chrome for example, all children appear to already be treated as presentational.

Basic markup example:

<div role = "tree" aria-label = "Accessible Name" id = "id1" aria-owns = "id1-1">
<div tabindex = "0" role = "treeitem" aria-expanded = "true" aria-level = "1" aria-selected = "true" id = "id1-1" aria-owns = "id2">
Branch Node
</div>
<div role = "group" id = "id2" aria-owns = "id2-1">
<div tabindex = "-1" role = "treeitem" aria-level = "2" id = "id2-1">
Child Leaf Node
</div>
</div>
</div>

So, if you add additional markup structures within that container, like so:

<div role = "tree" aria-label = "Accessible Name" id = "id1" aria-owns = "id1-1">
<h2> Some Heading </h2>
<div tabindex = "0" role = "treeitem" aria-expanded = "true" aria-level = "1" aria-selected = "true" id = "id1-1" aria-owns = "id2">
Branch Node
<ul>
<li> One </li>
<li> Two </li>
</ul>
</div>
<div role = "group" id = "id2" aria-owns = "id2-1">
<h3> Another Heading </h3>
<div tabindex = "-1" role = "treeitem" aria-level = "2" id = "id2-1">
Child Leaf Node
<a href="#"> What? </a>
<input type="checkbox" checked title="This is confusing?" />
</div>
</div>
</div>

If you test this in ATs, none of it makes any sense at all.



From: Fred Esch [mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Wednesday, January 13, 2016 8:42 AM
To: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>
Cc: Birkir Gunnarsson <birkir.gunnarsson@deque.com>; ARIA Working Group <public-aria@w3.org>
Subject: RE: Issue with ARIA 1.1 regarding which roles include children presentational = true ?


Bryan,

You could have an OLAP like tree with information in the leaves. For instance you could have a tree for a year. At the top node you provide the total sales for the year. The tree has a branch for each quarter. Each branch reports the total sales for the quarter. The quarters have leaves for each month with a total for the month. Inside the month is a list of week by week sales or perhaps are are 5 reports (articles) or whatever one report for each store. I have seen things like this implemented as nested lists and using the roles of tree, group and tree item are used. You can imaging a control like this appearing on an executive's dashboard.

I have also used trees as shadow DOM's for charts so AT could read the shadow DOM and get the chart information.
Regards,

Fred Esch
Watson, IBM, W3C Accessibility

[IBM Watson]

Watson Release Management and Quality



[Inactive hide details for Bryan Garaventa ---01/12/2016 06:52:03 PM---Thanks, can you provide an example of which ones? From: F]Bryan Garaventa ---01/12/2016 06:52:03 PM---Thanks, can you provide an example of which ones? From: Fred Esch [mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com]

From: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com<mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>>
To: Fred Esch/Arlington/IBM@IBMUS
Cc: Birkir Gunnarsson <birkir.gunnarsson@deque.com<mailto:birkir.gunnarsson@deque.com>>, ARIA Working Group <public-aria@w3.org<mailto:public-aria@w3.org>>
Date: 01/12/2016 06:52 PM
Subject: RE: Issue with ARIA 1.1 regarding which roles include children presentational = true ?

________________________________



Thanks, can you provide an example of which ones?

From: Fred Esch [mailto:fesch@us.ibm.com]
Sent: Tuesday, January 12, 2016 10:36 AM
To: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com<mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>>
Cc: Birkir Gunnarsson <birkir.gunnarsson@deque.com<mailto:birkir.gunnarsson@deque.com>>; ARIA Working Group <public-aria@w3.org<mailto:public-aria@w3.org>>
Subject: RE: Issue with ARIA 1.1 regarding which roles include children presentational = true ?

Bryan,

Role treeitem should not be children presentational true. A element with the role treeitem can have children that are semantically important and should be included in the accessibility tree.
Regards,

Fred Esch
Watson, IBM, W3C Accessibility

[IBM Watson]

Watson Release Management and Quality



[Inactive hide details for Bryan Garaventa ---01/11/2016 10:00:42 PM---Good question, I'm not sure, would be good to get others]Bryan Garaventa ---01/11/2016 10:00:42 PM---Good question, I'm not sure, would be good to get others opinions about this. I'm concerned at which

From: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com<mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>>
To: Birkir Gunnarsson <birkir.gunnarsson@deque.com<mailto:birkir.gunnarsson@deque.com>>
Cc: ARIA Working Group <public-aria@w3.org<mailto:public-aria@w3.org>>
Date: 01/11/2016 10:00 PM
Subject: RE: Issue with ARIA 1.1 regarding which roles include children presentational = true ?

________________________________




Good question, I'm not sure, would be good to get others opinions about this.

I'm concerned at which level it should stop making sense, such as embedded lists, tables, etc. None of that works intuitively in a link for example.

-----Original Message-----
From: Birkir Gunnarsson [mailto:birkir.gunnarsson@deque.com]
Sent: Monday, January 11, 2016 5:34 PM
To: Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com<mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>>
Cc: ARIA Working Group <public-aria@w3.org<mailto:public-aria@w3.org>>
Subject: Re: Issue with ARIA 1.1 regarding which roles include children presentational = true ?

Links can include block elements in html5.
Should those elements be ignored when they have a semantic role?
example:
<a href="#"><h2>Foo</h2</a>
Should assistive technologies expose this is an h2 link, or just as a link?


On 1/11/16, Bryan Garaventa <bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com<mailto:bryan.garaventa@ssbbartgroup.com>> wrote:
> Before I file this as an issue, I wanted to run this by those here in
> case I've got any of the details behind this incorrect.
>
> So, according to the children presentational description at
> http://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#h-childrenarepresentational
>
> This seemingly means that embedded child roles are not exposed by the
> user agent, but instead a flat labelling mechanism is used instead no
> matter what type of content is contained within these roles. Is that right?
>
> Currently only the following roles include this property:
> button
> img
> math
> progressbar
> separator
> scrollbar
> slider
>
> So this seems right, a button cannot include children with roles like
> link, slider, region, tablist, textbox, listbox, radio, checkbox,
> etc., because that wouldn't make any sense.
>
> So, with that logic, shouldn't all of the following roles also include
> children presentational = true ?
>
> checkbox
> combobox
> link
> menuitem
> menuitemcheckbox
> menuitemradio
> option
> radio
> searchbox
> spinbutton
> switch
> tab
> textbox
> treeitem
>
> This seems logical, because none of the above roles are 'composite'
> widgets.
> https://www.w3.org/TR/wai-aria-1.1/#composite
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
>


--
Birkir R. Gunnarsson
Senior Accessibility Subject Matter Expert | Deque Systems
2121 Cooperative Way, Suite 210
Herndon, VA, 20171

Ph: (919) 607-27 53
Twitter: @birkir_gun


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Received on Wednesday, 13 January 2016 18:22:00 UTC

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