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[aapi] Minutes: UAI TF Meeting Tue Feb 2, 2016

From: Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>
Date: Tue, 2 Feb 2016 16:19:31 -0500
To: ARIA Working Group <public-aria@w3.org>
Cc: "wai-xtech@w3.org" <wai-xtech@w3.org>
Message-ID: <56B11D63.8090007@igalia.com>
Link: https://www.w3.org/2016/02/02-aapi-minutes.html

Plain text follows.


      [1] http://www.w3.org/

   Accessible Rich Internet Applications Working Group Teleconference

02 Feb 2016

   See also: [2]IRC log

      [2] http://www.w3.org/2016/02/02-aapi-irc


          Joseph_Scheuhammer, Joanmarie_Diggs, Bryan_Garaventa,





     * [3]Topics
         1. [4]ACTION-2009 (Cynthia) Update of UIA mapping for
            role main.
         2. [5]ACTION-1531 (All) IA2 mapping of role="text" --
            latest from Alex.
         3. [6]ACTION-1569/1585 (Joseph/Cynthia/Jason) Add to
            section on AAPI differences highlighting the features
            of UIA.
         4. [7]ACTION-1593 (Cynthia) Compare implementations of
            AAPI managed states and look for gaps.
         5. [8]ACTION-1691/ISSUE-1010 (Cynthia) UIA mapping for
            aria-errormessage and role="error".
         6. [9]Triage:
     * [10]Summary of Action Items
     * [11]Summary of Resolutions

   <clown> agenda: this

   <scribe> scribe: joanie

ACTION-2009 (Cynthia) Update of UIA mapping for role main.


   <trackbot> action-2009 -- Cynthia Shelly to Update UIA mapping
   for role="main" (GitHub issue #238) -- due 2016-02-08 --

   <trackbot> [12]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2009

     [12] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/2009

   JS: This is a fresh action.
   ... I saw yesterday that Cynthia made some requests to the
   mapping of role="main".



   JS: I did it this morning. See the above URL.

   CS: Looks good. Thanks.

   JS: I'm going to close the action; I'll let you (Cynthia) close
   the GitHub action.

   CS: Is it checked in?

   JS: Yes.

ACTION-1531 (All) IA2 mapping of role="text" -- latest from Alex.


   <trackbot> action-1531 -- David Bolter to Bolter to investigate
   ia2 mapping of role="text" -- due 2014-11-18 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [14]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1531

     [14] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1531

   JS: The continuing saga of role="text"


     [15] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Jan/0151.html

   JS: I asked Alex about the mapping for role="text" for IA2.
   ... (See above URL)
   ... Alex says he's ok with that.
   ... But he also wants there to be the accessible text
   implementation on both IA2 and ATK.
   ... Alex did point out that he didn't like this as there will
   be instances where accessible text doesn't apply.


     [16] https://lists.w3.org/Archives/Public/public-aria/2016Jan/0151.html

   JS: I pointed out to Alex that Jamie had said he could handle
   both instances.
   ... Alex then asked why UIA's mapping was different.



   JS: I'm reading from the above URL.
   ... It looks like UIA mapping is to the text control pattern.
   ... So I'm wondering if Cynthia could reply to Alex's question.

   CS: This mapping is what we'd do for a span.
   ... When we map something as text, it doesn't become its own
   separate text control pattern.
   ... Unless it has a property (like a tabindex) necessitating it
   be exposed as a seperate accessible object.
   ... So basically for role="text" you're taking the semantics
   ... Which is somewhat different from role="presentation".

   JS: I think that this is essentially what the other platforms
   are doing.

   CS: I don't like the fact that role="text" removes all the

   <clown> <table role="text"> ... many rows, columns, and cells
   ... </table>

   JS: I agree.
   ... I replied to Alex that I shared his misgivings.
   ... See above example.

   CS: I still don't understand why we need both
   role="presentation" and role="text".

   JS: With role="presentation", at least the block level elements
   are preserved; this is not the case for role="text", which
   becomes one big string.





   CS: So from a practical point of view, role="text" turns things
   into spans; role="presentation" turns them into divs?

   JS: I believe so, yes.

   CS: For UIA, there's not going to be a functional difference.
   ... And I think having both is going to potentially confuse

   JS: (Reads from original proposal)

   CS: So the behavior is different for images?
   ... I'm not sure what we do with presentational images.
   ... But it seems like role="text" on an image will take the alt
   text and expose it like the span-like contents.

   BG: Presentation applied to form fields don't cause the form
   fields to go away.

   JS: I think if the element has an event on it, or one of the
   globals, presentation is ignored.
   ... I don't think role="text" has that caveat.

   CS: That's scary.

   JS: Yes it is.

   CS: For UIA, we could tweak it slightly wrt the name
   ... Right now, presentation doesn't run name calculation.
   ... But if you had button with a title, or an image with alt
   text, the underlying string would not get added for name
   ... In the case of role="text", perhaps it should.

   <clown> cyns, we lost you on webex.

   <clown> [20]https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/435

     [20] https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/435

   <cyns> UIA: Text Control Pattern. Run name calculation, and add
   the resulting string to the text pattern for the overall page,
   at the point where the element occurred.

   JS: (Reads some of the comments from issue-435)

   JD: We'll I agree with the misgivings, but for the record, this
   is not going to require Orca have a virtual buffer.

   <clown> [21]http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#text

     [21] http://w3c.github.io/aria/aria/aria.html#text

   JS: (Reads from spec)
   ... It includes role="presentation"/"none" as an alternative
   for authors wishing to keep some of the elements.
   ... And it's a SHOULD -- not a MUST -- for interactive

   CS: Can we add an issue to have the same exemptions on
   role="text" that we have on role="presentation"?

   JS: I think we should.
   ... And I think it should be in the spec. We can also add
   something to the AAM, but....

   CS: This is an issue in the spec. The statement would need to
   be added to the spec.
   ... This would make me feel less concerned about role="text".

   <clown> proposed issue text: For role="text", there needs to be
   requirements on user agents for overrides, such as controls,
   events, and other global aria properties, like there is for

   CS: Looks good to me.

   <clown> ISSUE: For role="text", there needs to be requirements
   on user agents for overrides, such as controls, events, and
   other global aria properties, like there is for

   <trackbot> Created ISSUE-1011 - For role="text", there needs to
   be requirements on user agents for overrides, such as controls,
   events, and other global aria properties, like there is for
   role="presentation".. Please complete additional details at

     [22] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1011/edit

   JS: Are you still going to email Alex?

   CS: Yes.
   ... I'll include the issue and ask him if it helps.

   JS: Do you want me to add that mapping?

   CS: Yes.

ACTION-1569/1585 (Joseph/Cynthia/Jason) Add to section on AAPI
differences highlighting the features of UIA.


   <trackbot> action-1569 -- Jason Kiss to Create a section that
   describes AAPI differences -- due 2015-03-03 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [23]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1569

     [23] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1569


   <trackbot> action-1585 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Add to the
   section on differences among aapis highlighting the features of
   uia. -- due 2016-01-15 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [24]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1585

     [24] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1585

   JS: I was trying to find time to add Jason's section to the
   Core AAM, and Cynthia's text as well.
   ... I've asked Jason how he wants to proceed.
   ... But I've not yet heard back from him.
   ... So I may just proceed and then ask him.

   CS: Sounds reasonable.

ACTION-1593 (Cynthia) Compare implementations of AAPI managed states
and look for gaps.


   <trackbot> action-1593 -- Cynthia Shelly to Compare
   implementations of AAPI managed states and look for gaps. --
   due 2016-02-08 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [25]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1593

     [25] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1593

   JS: That's the same one, really.
   ... Correction, it's not.
   ... This is something we opened a year ago.

   CS: I pushed the date out again.
   ... I do intend to do it, but other things keep coming up.

ACTION-1691/ISSUE-1010 (Cynthia) UIA mapping for aria-errormessage
and role="error".


   <trackbot> action-1691 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Propose UIA
   mapping for aria-errormessage. -- due 2015-12-31 -- CLOSED

   <trackbot> [26]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1691

     [26] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1691


   <trackbot> issue-1010 -- Add an error role -- open

   <trackbot> [27]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1010

     [27] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/1010

   <clown> [28]https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1691

     [28] https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1691

   JS: This is one I want to put past you quickly.
   ... I got your text, I made the changes.



   JS: They are at the above URL.
   ... I discovered when doing so that we didn't have a table yet
   for aria-errormessage.
   ... So I put in the UIA text and left the others TBD.

   CS: (Reads the current proposed mapping and suggests "target")
   ... The other thing you could do instead of a long sentence is
   just say "ControllerFor".

   JS: I thought about it, but I didn't know what it meant, so I
   looked around.
   ... The statement that is there is the same one elsed
   ... I've already closed the action (action-1691).
   ... I'll update the text as described.

Triage: [30]https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/products/23

     [30] https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/products/23


   <trackbot> action-1541 -- James Craig to Investigate and
   propose mappings for aria-modal property for axapi. -- due
   2015-08-18 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [31]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1541

     [31] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1541

   JS: Is anything new?
   ... The last time I looked, there was a bug in WebKit's
   ... It's now resolved.
   ... As a duplicate.
   ... The duplicate is marked resolved FIXED.


     [32] https://bugs.webkit.org/show_bug.cgi?id=138566

   JS: I'll assign this action to myself and do the edits.
   ... I'll try to have it done in a week, which is February 9th.


   <trackbot> action-1668 -- Alexander Surkov to Add a
   ia2_role_landmark to ia2. this will tell ats to look at the
   xml-roles value for landmarks -- due 2015-07-07 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [33]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1668

     [33] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1668

   JS: I have no notes on this.

   JD: Rich recently did email Alex on some list.


   <trackbot> Sorry, but action-1689 does not exist.


   <trackbot> action-1681 -- Joseph Scheuhammer to Propose new
   wording, as an editorial change only to clarify the inclusion
   rules in section 5.1.2 -- due 2015-09-15 -- OPEN

   <trackbot> [34]http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1681

     [34] http://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/actions/1681

   JS: This is mine.
   ... I thought it was ambiguous. Cynthia disagrees.
   ... My problem is with the first sentence.
   ... It implies if something has already been excluded, skip
   this section.
   ... That is not right.



   CS: Your re-write sounds ok.
   ... (Reads it)
   ... The old text didn't bother me, but your text seems good

   BG: I don't see anything wrong with it.



   <clown> [37]https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/708

     [37] https://www.w3.org/WAI/ARIA/track/issues/708

   JS: My text is in the comments of this issue.

   Suggested rewording:

   "The following conditions override the rules above in Excluding
   Elements in the Accessibility Tree. Even if excluded by those
   rules, user agents MUST ...

   <clown> <span role="presentation" tabindex="0"
   onclick="clickHandle" aria-labelledby="foo">DingDong</span>


     [38] https://github.com/w3c/aria/issues/136

   JD: Given the whole SVG golden hammer thread (see above URL),
   should we consider your proposed text in the context of this
   larger issue rather than just committing it because we here
   agree your text sounds good/right?

   JS: Can you look at my example in this log.
   ... My reading of the Core AAM says that span is not included
   in the accessibility tree because role="presentation" knocks it
   ... Thoughts?

   JD: (Quotes from GitHub issue 136)
   ... Conclusion: It would be included; not pruned, because of
   ... Even though reaching that conclusion is really hard and

   JS: Then I would argue that the Core AAM is in conflict with
   the spec.
   ... I think that the text in the AAM is ambiguous.
   ... I think the text in the spec is not ambiguous.

   (Group discusses variations of Joseph's original example and
   whether or not it would be included or excluded and what spec
   or specs apply)

   JS: I won't put the text in for now.

   CS: You could put the ARIA spec text in.

   JS: I think that my text is better as it is not limited to
   global ARIA attributes.

   CS: And I think your (Joseph's) text is better/less ambiguous.

   JD: I withdraw my previous suggestion that you (Joseph) hold
   off on committing it to Core AAM.
   ... I continue to think, however, we need to deal with this in
   the ARIA spec, and other specs.

   JS: Ok, I'll put it in the Core AAM.

Summary of Action Items

Summary of Resolutions

   [End of minutes]
Received on Tuesday, 2 February 2016 21:20:13 UTC

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