Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2 Role Landmark

Hi Alex, all.

I don't recall saying "kill the form role" in ATK. We have no plans to
deprecate ATK_ROLE_FORM. Instead, I believe I said something along the
lines of the following:

Q: Should HTML's form element be treated like a landmark for the
   purposes of navigation?

If Yes: Map it to ATK_ROLE_LANDMARK
If No: Continue mapping it to ATK_ROLE_FORM

--joanie

On 08/25/2016 10:08 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
> I don't think Jamie argues that FORM is not a landmark. The point is
> that FORM is a form and also a landmark. IA2 provides a special FORM
> role, which is used both for ARIA and HTML currently, and adopted by
> browsers and screen readers.
> 
> If we use weaker role for forms, then we loose semantics as Jamie
> pointed out, and we make a not backward compatible change. All JAWS and
> other commercial screen reader users will have to buy a new screen
> reader version.
> 
> ATK gained this role, because it doesn't have a mechanism to fetch all
> landmarks on a page other than query it by role. And thus they are ok to
> sacrifice ATK form role for performance reasons I think. Note, ATK world
> doesn't have so acute problem of backward compatibility as IA2 has, so
> they have a larger room for changes. IA2 landmark role is a ATK toll to
> keep IA2 compatible with, this is a primary reason, if I do understand
> that right. However I'm not confident too that we should take ATK path
> and kill a form role too.
> 
> On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 3:34 AM, Schnabel, Stefan
> <stefan.schnabel@sap.com <mailto:stefan.schnabel@sap.com>> wrote:
> 
>     Hi James,____
> 
>     __ __
> 
>     currently Jaws treats forms like regions as landmarks, i.e. showing
>     them in its landmarks dialog, too. They do this for reason, page
>     structure is very clearly revealed by this. I consider this as a
>     strong feature and do not like this changed.____
> 
>     __ __
> 
>     The logic behind that is the pragmatic thinking that forms are
>     landmark-like, too. And a “navigation” landmark can contain fairly
>     complex content, too, not just a list of links.____
> 
>     __ __
> 
>     Best Regards____
> 
>     Stefan____
> 
>     __ __
> 
>     *From:*James Teh [mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org
>     <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org>]
>     *Sent:* Donnerstag, 25. August 2016 00:33
>     *To:* Rich Schwerdtfeger <richschwer@gmail.com
>     <mailto:richschwer@gmail.com>>
>     *Cc:* Alexander Surkov <surkov.alexander@gmail.com
>     <mailto:surkov.alexander@gmail.com>>; Joseph Scheuhammer
>     <clown@alum.mit.edu <mailto:clown@alum.mit.edu>>; Joanmarie Diggs
>     <jdiggs@igalia.com <mailto:jdiggs@igalia.com>>; IA2 List
>     <Accessibility-ia2@lists.linux-foundation.org
>     <mailto:Accessibility-ia2@lists.linux-foundation.org>>; ARIA Working
>     Group <public-aria@w3.org <mailto:public-aria@w3.org>>; Steven
>     Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com <mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com>>
>     *Subject:* Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2 Role Landmark____
> 
>     __ __
> 
>     Hi Rich,____
> 
>     __ __
> 
>     I understand the reason for the use of the landmark role for
>     role="form". However, I disagree with the HTML form element being
>     mapped to the landmark role because semantics are lost. The fact
>     that something is a form has more semantic value than just being a
>     landmark. Still, if the spec already requires this, I guess we have
>     little choice but to comply at this stage.____
> 
> 
>     Jamie____
> 
>     On 25/08/2016 3:08 AM, Rich Schwerdtfeger wrote:____
> 
>         Jamie,  ____
> 
>         __ __
> 
>         The point is we want ALL the landmarks to be treated the same
>         way for ATVs. So, first we determine that it is a landmark. Then
>         we go to xml-roles to determine the type of landmark. ____
> 
>         __ __
> 
>         Otherwise, we need a special case for a form. That is what we
>         are trying to avoid. For these reasons ATK/ATSPI created a
>         landmark role first. ____
> 
>         __ __
> 
>         The HTML the form element now uses the ARIA mappings for the
>         form role. See "Use WAI-ARIA mapping” under the form element.
>         This is for all platforms.____
> 
>         __ __
> 
>         https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html
>         <https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html>____
> 
>         __ __
> 
>         We do understand that non-browser applications may still use the
>         older Form role mapping as would older browser versions. It is
>         for these reasons that our definition of deprecation is that it
>         has not gone a way but rather it is going to this new preferred
>         mapping. ____
> 
>         __ __
> 
>         Best,____
> 
>         __ __
> 
>         Rich____
> 
>         __ __
> 
>         __ __
> 
>         __ __
> 
>         Rich Schwerdtfeger____
> 
>         __ __
> 
>         __ __
> 
>         __ __
> 
>             On Aug 23, 2016, at 7:35 PM, James Teh <jamie@nvaccess.org
>             <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org>> wrote:____
> 
>             __ __
> 
>             If you believe that role="form" has no semantic value other
>             than being a landmark, then let's go ahead and map it to
>             IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK. On the other hand, the HTML form tag
>             *does* have semantic value other than being a landmark, so
>             I'd argue it should be IA2_ROLE_FORM.____
> 
>             __ __
> 
>             On 24/08/2016 5:22 AM, Rich Schwerdtfeger wrote:____
> 
>                 We are not asking that IA2_ROLE_FORM be deprecated
>                 altogether. Even with ARIA we have some attributes that
>                 re deprecated but that is meant so that there will be a
>                 replacement solution. An example is the drag and drop
>                 aria properties. For ARIA browser conformance testing to
>                 exit Candidate Recommendation we will be testing for
>                 IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK on form roles.  ____
> 
>                 __ __
> 
>                 Rich Schwerdtfeger____
> 
>                 __ __
> 
>                 __ __
> 
>                 __ __
> 
>                     On Aug 18, 2016, at 9:56 PM, James Teh
>                     <jamie@nvaccess.org <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org>>
>                     wrote:____
> 
>                     __ __
> 
>                     On 11/08/2016 2:58 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
> 
>                     ____
> 
>                         1) adding IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK and____
> 
>                     Yes.
> 
> 
>                     ____
> 
>                         2) deprecating IA2_ROLE_FORM?____
> 
>                     I'd argue that there is more semantic value in a
>                     "form" than just the fact that it is a landmark.
>                     This probably doesn't apply to ARIA (at least for
>                     now), since role="form" is defined as only a
>                     landmark. However, I'd argue it does apply to the
>                     HTML form tag. So, I'm fine t not use IA2_ROLE_FORM
>                     for ARIA role="form", but I'm dubious about
>                     deprecating it altogether, including for the HTML
>                     form tag.
>                     Jamie
> 
>                     -- 
>                     James Teh
>                     Executive Director, NV Access Limited
>                     Ph +61 7 3149 3306 <tel:%2B61%207%203149%203306>
>                     www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>
>                     Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>                     <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess>
>                     Twitter: @NVAccess
>                     SIP: jamie@nvaccess.org <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org>____
> 
>                 __ __
> 
> 
> 
>             ____
> 
>             -- ____
> 
>             James Teh____
> 
>             Executive Director, NV Access Limited____
> 
>             Ph +61 7 3149 3306 <tel:%2B61%207%203149%203306>____
> 
>             www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>____
> 
>             Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>             <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess>____
> 
>             Twitter: @NVAccess____
> 
>             SIP: jamie@nvaccess.org <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org>____
> 
>         __ __
> 
> 
> 
>     ____
> 
>     -- ____
> 
>     James Teh____
> 
>     Executive Director, NV Access Limited____
> 
>     Ph +61 7 3149 3306 <tel:%2B61%207%203149%203306>____
> 
>     www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org>____
> 
>     Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess>____
> 
>     Twitter: @NVAccess____
> 
>     SIP: jamie@nvaccess.org <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org>____
> 
>

Received on Thursday, 25 August 2016 14:24:48 UTC