- From: Alexander Surkov <surkov.alexander@gmail.com>
- Date: Thu, 25 Aug 2016 10:29:33 -0400
- To: Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>
- Cc: "Schnabel, Stefan" <stefan.schnabel@sap.com>, James Teh <jamie@nvaccess.org>, Rich Schwerdtfeger <richschwer@gmail.com>, Joseph Scheuhammer <clown@alum.mit.edu>, IA2 List <Accessibility-ia2@lists.linux-foundation.org>, ARIA Working Group <public-aria@w3.org>, Steven Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
- Message-ID: <CA+epNsdMjMaWiSUrjmiEZquRQp5QsqJzmNTZECBoKPkJ1ptETw@mail.gmail.com>
Hi, Joanie. I'd say HTML form is a landmark as any other form in the world, but I let judge others on this. If there's no use case for ATK form role, then what is a reason to keep it? On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 10:24 AM, Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com> wrote: > Hi Alex, all. > > I don't recall saying "kill the form role" in ATK. We have no plans to > deprecate ATK_ROLE_FORM. Instead, I believe I said something along the > lines of the following: > > Q: Should HTML's form element be treated like a landmark for the > purposes of navigation? > > If Yes: Map it to ATK_ROLE_LANDMARK > If No: Continue mapping it to ATK_ROLE_FORM > > --joanie > > On 08/25/2016 10:08 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote: > > I don't think Jamie argues that FORM is not a landmark. The point is > > that FORM is a form and also a landmark. IA2 provides a special FORM > > role, which is used both for ARIA and HTML currently, and adopted by > > browsers and screen readers. > > > > If we use weaker role for forms, then we loose semantics as Jamie > > pointed out, and we make a not backward compatible change. All JAWS and > > other commercial screen reader users will have to buy a new screen > > reader version. > > > > ATK gained this role, because it doesn't have a mechanism to fetch all > > landmarks on a page other than query it by role. And thus they are ok to > > sacrifice ATK form role for performance reasons I think. Note, ATK world > > doesn't have so acute problem of backward compatibility as IA2 has, so > > they have a larger room for changes. IA2 landmark role is a ATK toll to > > keep IA2 compatible with, this is a primary reason, if I do understand > > that right. However I'm not confident too that we should take ATK path > > and kill a form role too. > > > > On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 3:34 AM, Schnabel, Stefan > > <stefan.schnabel@sap.com <mailto:stefan.schnabel@sap.com>> wrote: > > > > Hi James,____ > > > > __ __ > > > > currently Jaws treats forms like regions as landmarks, i.e. showing > > them in its landmarks dialog, too. They do this for reason, page > > structure is very clearly revealed by this. I consider this as a > > strong feature and do not like this changed.____ > > > > __ __ > > > > The logic behind that is the pragmatic thinking that forms are > > landmark-like, too. And a “navigation” landmark can contain fairly > > complex content, too, not just a list of links.____ > > > > __ __ > > > > Best Regards____ > > > > Stefan____ > > > > __ __ > > > > *From:*James Teh [mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org > > <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org>] > > *Sent:* Donnerstag, 25. August 2016 00:33 > > *To:* Rich Schwerdtfeger <richschwer@gmail.com > > <mailto:richschwer@gmail.com>> > > *Cc:* Alexander Surkov <surkov.alexander@gmail.com > > <mailto:surkov.alexander@gmail.com>>; Joseph Scheuhammer > > <clown@alum.mit.edu <mailto:clown@alum.mit.edu>>; Joanmarie Diggs > > <jdiggs@igalia.com <mailto:jdiggs@igalia.com>>; IA2 List > > <Accessibility-ia2@lists.linux-foundation.org > > <mailto:Accessibility-ia2@lists.linux-foundation.org>>; ARIA Working > > Group <public-aria@w3.org <mailto:public-aria@w3.org>>; Steven > > Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com <mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com > >> > > *Subject:* Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2 Role Landmark____ > > > > __ __ > > > > Hi Rich,____ > > > > __ __ > > > > I understand the reason for the use of the landmark role for > > role="form". However, I disagree with the HTML form element being > > mapped to the landmark role because semantics are lost. The fact > > that something is a form has more semantic value than just being a > > landmark. Still, if the spec already requires this, I guess we have > > little choice but to comply at this stage.____ > > > > > > Jamie____ > > > > On 25/08/2016 3:08 AM, Rich Schwerdtfeger wrote:____ > > > > Jamie, ____ > > > > __ __ > > > > The point is we want ALL the landmarks to be treated the same > > way for ATVs. So, first we determine that it is a landmark. Then > > we go to xml-roles to determine the type of landmark. ____ > > > > __ __ > > > > Otherwise, we need a special case for a form. That is what we > > are trying to avoid. For these reasons ATK/ATSPI created a > > landmark role first. ____ > > > > __ __ > > > > The HTML the form element now uses the ARIA mappings for the > > form role. See "Use WAI-ARIA mapping” under the form element. > > This is for all platforms.____ > > > > __ __ > > > > https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html > > <https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html>____ > > > > __ __ > > > > We do understand that non-browser applications may still use the > > older Form role mapping as would older browser versions. It is > > for these reasons that our definition of deprecation is that it > > has not gone a way but rather it is going to this new preferred > > mapping. ____ > > > > __ __ > > > > Best,____ > > > > __ __ > > > > Rich____ > > > > __ __ > > > > __ __ > > > > __ __ > > > > Rich Schwerdtfeger____ > > > > __ __ > > > > __ __ > > > > __ __ > > > > On Aug 23, 2016, at 7:35 PM, James Teh <jamie@nvaccess.org > > <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org>> wrote:____ > > > > __ __ > > > > If you believe that role="form" has no semantic value other > > than being a landmark, then let's go ahead and map it to > > IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK. On the other hand, the HTML form tag > > *does* have semantic value other than being a landmark, so > > I'd argue it should be IA2_ROLE_FORM.____ > > > > __ __ > > > > On 24/08/2016 5:22 AM, Rich Schwerdtfeger wrote:____ > > > > We are not asking that IA2_ROLE_FORM be deprecated > > altogether. Even with ARIA we have some attributes that > > re deprecated but that is meant so that there will be a > > replacement solution. An example is the drag and drop > > aria properties. For ARIA browser conformance testing to > > exit Candidate Recommendation we will be testing for > > IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK on form roles. ____ > > > > __ __ > > > > Rich Schwerdtfeger____ > > > > __ __ > > > > __ __ > > > > __ __ > > > > On Aug 18, 2016, at 9:56 PM, James Teh > > <jamie@nvaccess.org <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org>> > > wrote:____ > > > > __ __ > > > > On 11/08/2016 2:58 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote: > > > > ____ > > > > 1) adding IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK and____ > > > > Yes. > > > > > > ____ > > > > 2) deprecating IA2_ROLE_FORM?____ > > > > I'd argue that there is more semantic value in a > > "form" than just the fact that it is a landmark. > > This probably doesn't apply to ARIA (at least for > > now), since role="form" is defined as only a > > landmark. However, I'd argue it does apply to the > > HTML form tag. So, I'm fine t not use IA2_ROLE_FORM > > for ARIA role="form", but I'm dubious about > > deprecating it altogether, including for the HTML > > form tag. > > Jamie > > > > -- > > James Teh > > Executive Director, NV Access Limited > > Ph +61 7 3149 3306 <tel:%2B61%207%203149%203306> > > www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/> > > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess > > <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess> > > Twitter: @NVAccess > > SIP: jamie@nvaccess.org <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org > >____ > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > ____ > > > > -- ____ > > > > James Teh____ > > > > Executive Director, NV Access Limited____ > > > > Ph +61 7 3149 3306 <tel:%2B61%207%203149%203306>____ > > > > www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>____ > > > > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess > > <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess>____ > > > > Twitter: @NVAccess____ > > > > SIP: jamie@nvaccess.org <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org>____ > > > > __ __ > > > > > > > > ____ > > > > -- ____ > > > > James Teh____ > > > > Executive Director, NV Access Limited____ > > > > Ph +61 7 3149 3306 <tel:%2B61%207%203149%203306>____ > > > > www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org>____ > > > > Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess <http://www.facebook.com/ > NVAccess>____ > > > > Twitter: @NVAccess____ > > > > SIP: jamie@nvaccess.org <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org>____ > > > > > >
Received on Thursday, 25 August 2016 14:30:07 UTC