Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2 Role Landmark

Hi, Joanie.

I'd say HTML form is a landmark as any other form in the world, but I let
judge others on this.

If there's no use case for ATK form role, then what is a reason to keep it?

On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 10:24 AM, Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com> wrote:

> Hi Alex, all.
>
> I don't recall saying "kill the form role" in ATK. We have no plans to
> deprecate ATK_ROLE_FORM. Instead, I believe I said something along the
> lines of the following:
>
> Q: Should HTML's form element be treated like a landmark for the
>    purposes of navigation?
>
> If Yes: Map it to ATK_ROLE_LANDMARK
> If No: Continue mapping it to ATK_ROLE_FORM
>
> --joanie
>
> On 08/25/2016 10:08 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
> > I don't think Jamie argues that FORM is not a landmark. The point is
> > that FORM is a form and also a landmark. IA2 provides a special FORM
> > role, which is used both for ARIA and HTML currently, and adopted by
> > browsers and screen readers.
> >
> > If we use weaker role for forms, then we loose semantics as Jamie
> > pointed out, and we make a not backward compatible change. All JAWS and
> > other commercial screen reader users will have to buy a new screen
> > reader version.
> >
> > ATK gained this role, because it doesn't have a mechanism to fetch all
> > landmarks on a page other than query it by role. And thus they are ok to
> > sacrifice ATK form role for performance reasons I think. Note, ATK world
> > doesn't have so acute problem of backward compatibility as IA2 has, so
> > they have a larger room for changes. IA2 landmark role is a ATK toll to
> > keep IA2 compatible with, this is a primary reason, if I do understand
> > that right. However I'm not confident too that we should take ATK path
> > and kill a form role too.
> >
> > On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 3:34 AM, Schnabel, Stefan
> > <stefan.schnabel@sap.com <mailto:stefan.schnabel@sap.com>> wrote:
> >
> >     Hi James,____
> >
> >     __ __
> >
> >     currently Jaws treats forms like regions as landmarks, i.e. showing
> >     them in its landmarks dialog, too. They do this for reason, page
> >     structure is very clearly revealed by this. I consider this as a
> >     strong feature and do not like this changed.____
> >
> >     __ __
> >
> >     The logic behind that is the pragmatic thinking that forms are
> >     landmark-like, too. And a “navigation” landmark can contain fairly
> >     complex content, too, not just a list of links.____
> >
> >     __ __
> >
> >     Best Regards____
> >
> >     Stefan____
> >
> >     __ __
> >
> >     *From:*James Teh [mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org
> >     <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org>]
> >     *Sent:* Donnerstag, 25. August 2016 00:33
> >     *To:* Rich Schwerdtfeger <richschwer@gmail.com
> >     <mailto:richschwer@gmail.com>>
> >     *Cc:* Alexander Surkov <surkov.alexander@gmail.com
> >     <mailto:surkov.alexander@gmail.com>>; Joseph Scheuhammer
> >     <clown@alum.mit.edu <mailto:clown@alum.mit.edu>>; Joanmarie Diggs
> >     <jdiggs@igalia.com <mailto:jdiggs@igalia.com>>; IA2 List
> >     <Accessibility-ia2@lists.linux-foundation.org
> >     <mailto:Accessibility-ia2@lists.linux-foundation.org>>; ARIA Working
> >     Group <public-aria@w3.org <mailto:public-aria@w3.org>>; Steven
> >     Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com <mailto:faulkner.steve@gmail.com
> >>
> >     *Subject:* Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2 Role Landmark____
> >
> >     __ __
> >
> >     Hi Rich,____
> >
> >     __ __
> >
> >     I understand the reason for the use of the landmark role for
> >     role="form". However, I disagree with the HTML form element being
> >     mapped to the landmark role because semantics are lost. The fact
> >     that something is a form has more semantic value than just being a
> >     landmark. Still, if the spec already requires this, I guess we have
> >     little choice but to comply at this stage.____
> >
> >
> >     Jamie____
> >
> >     On 25/08/2016 3:08 AM, Rich Schwerdtfeger wrote:____
> >
> >         Jamie,  ____
> >
> >         __ __
> >
> >         The point is we want ALL the landmarks to be treated the same
> >         way for ATVs. So, first we determine that it is a landmark. Then
> >         we go to xml-roles to determine the type of landmark. ____
> >
> >         __ __
> >
> >         Otherwise, we need a special case for a form. That is what we
> >         are trying to avoid. For these reasons ATK/ATSPI created a
> >         landmark role first. ____
> >
> >         __ __
> >
> >         The HTML the form element now uses the ARIA mappings for the
> >         form role. See "Use WAI-ARIA mapping” under the form element.
> >         This is for all platforms.____
> >
> >         __ __
> >
> >         https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html
> >         <https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html>____
> >
> >         __ __
> >
> >         We do understand that non-browser applications may still use the
> >         older Form role mapping as would older browser versions. It is
> >         for these reasons that our definition of deprecation is that it
> >         has not gone a way but rather it is going to this new preferred
> >         mapping. ____
> >
> >         __ __
> >
> >         Best,____
> >
> >         __ __
> >
> >         Rich____
> >
> >         __ __
> >
> >         __ __
> >
> >         __ __
> >
> >         Rich Schwerdtfeger____
> >
> >         __ __
> >
> >         __ __
> >
> >         __ __
> >
> >             On Aug 23, 2016, at 7:35 PM, James Teh <jamie@nvaccess.org
> >             <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org>> wrote:____
> >
> >             __ __
> >
> >             If you believe that role="form" has no semantic value other
> >             than being a landmark, then let's go ahead and map it to
> >             IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK. On the other hand, the HTML form tag
> >             *does* have semantic value other than being a landmark, so
> >             I'd argue it should be IA2_ROLE_FORM.____
> >
> >             __ __
> >
> >             On 24/08/2016 5:22 AM, Rich Schwerdtfeger wrote:____
> >
> >                 We are not asking that IA2_ROLE_FORM be deprecated
> >                 altogether. Even with ARIA we have some attributes that
> >                 re deprecated but that is meant so that there will be a
> >                 replacement solution. An example is the drag and drop
> >                 aria properties. For ARIA browser conformance testing to
> >                 exit Candidate Recommendation we will be testing for
> >                 IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK on form roles.  ____
> >
> >                 __ __
> >
> >                 Rich Schwerdtfeger____
> >
> >                 __ __
> >
> >                 __ __
> >
> >                 __ __
> >
> >                     On Aug 18, 2016, at 9:56 PM, James Teh
> >                     <jamie@nvaccess.org <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org>>
> >                     wrote:____
> >
> >                     __ __
> >
> >                     On 11/08/2016 2:58 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
> >
> >                     ____
> >
> >                         1) adding IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK and____
> >
> >                     Yes.
> >
> >
> >                     ____
> >
> >                         2) deprecating IA2_ROLE_FORM?____
> >
> >                     I'd argue that there is more semantic value in a
> >                     "form" than just the fact that it is a landmark.
> >                     This probably doesn't apply to ARIA (at least for
> >                     now), since role="form" is defined as only a
> >                     landmark. However, I'd argue it does apply to the
> >                     HTML form tag. So, I'm fine t not use IA2_ROLE_FORM
> >                     for ARIA role="form", but I'm dubious about
> >                     deprecating it altogether, including for the HTML
> >                     form tag.
> >                     Jamie
> >
> >                     --
> >                     James Teh
> >                     Executive Director, NV Access Limited
> >                     Ph +61 7 3149 3306 <tel:%2B61%207%203149%203306>
> >                     www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>
> >                     Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> >                     <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess>
> >                     Twitter: @NVAccess
> >                     SIP: jamie@nvaccess.org <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org
> >____
> >
> >                 __ __
> >
> >
> >
> >             ____
> >
> >             -- ____
> >
> >             James Teh____
> >
> >             Executive Director, NV Access Limited____
> >
> >             Ph +61 7 3149 3306 <tel:%2B61%207%203149%203306>____
> >
> >             www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org/>____
> >
> >             Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> >             <http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess>____
> >
> >             Twitter: @NVAccess____
> >
> >             SIP: jamie@nvaccess.org <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org>____
> >
> >         __ __
> >
> >
> >
> >     ____
> >
> >     -- ____
> >
> >     James Teh____
> >
> >     Executive Director, NV Access Limited____
> >
> >     Ph +61 7 3149 3306 <tel:%2B61%207%203149%203306>____
> >
> >     www.nvaccess.org <http://www.nvaccess.org>____
> >
> >     Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess <http://www.facebook.com/
> NVAccess>____
> >
> >     Twitter: @NVAccess____
> >
> >     SIP: jamie@nvaccess.org <mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org>____
> >
> >
>
>

Received on Thursday, 25 August 2016 14:30:07 UTC