Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2 Role Landmark

I don't think Jamie argues that FORM is not a landmark. The point is that
FORM is a form and also a landmark. IA2 provides a special FORM role, which
is used both for ARIA and HTML currently, and adopted by browsers and
screen readers.

If we use weaker role for forms, then we loose semantics as Jamie pointed
out, and we make a not backward compatible change. All JAWS and other
commercial screen reader users will have to buy a new screen reader version.

ATK gained this role, because it doesn't have a mechanism to fetch all
landmarks on a page other than query it by role. And thus they are ok to
sacrifice ATK form role for performance reasons I think. Note, ATK world
doesn't have so acute problem of backward compatibility as IA2 has, so they
have a larger room for changes. IA2 landmark role is a ATK toll to keep IA2
compatible with, this is a primary reason, if I do understand that right.
However I'm not confident too that we should take ATK path and kill a form
role too.

On Thu, Aug 25, 2016 at 3:34 AM, Schnabel, Stefan <stefan.schnabel@sap.com>
wrote:

> Hi James,
>
>
>
> currently Jaws treats forms like regions as landmarks, i.e. showing them
> in its landmarks dialog, too. They do this for reason, page structure is
> very clearly revealed by this. I consider this as a strong feature and do
> not like this changed.
>
>
>
> The logic behind that is the pragmatic thinking that forms are
> landmark-like, too. And a “navigation” landmark can contain fairly complex
> content, too, not just a list of links.
>
>
>
> Best Regards
>
> Stefan
>
>
>
> *From:* James Teh [mailto:jamie@nvaccess.org]
> *Sent:* Donnerstag, 25. August 2016 00:33
> *To:* Rich Schwerdtfeger <richschwer@gmail.com>
> *Cc:* Alexander Surkov <surkov.alexander@gmail.com>; Joseph Scheuhammer <
> clown@alum.mit.edu>; Joanmarie Diggs <jdiggs@igalia.com>; IA2 List <
> Accessibility-ia2@lists.linux-foundation.org>; ARIA Working Group <
> public-aria@w3.org>; Steven Faulkner <faulkner.steve@gmail.com>
> *Subject:* Re: [Accessibility-ia2] IA2 Role Landmark
>
>
>
> Hi Rich,
>
>
>
> I understand the reason for the use of the landmark role for role="form".
> However, I disagree with the HTML form element being mapped to the landmark
> role because semantics are lost. The fact that something is a form has more
> semantic value than just being a landmark. Still, if the spec already
> requires this, I guess we have little choice but to comply at this stage.
>
>
> Jamie
>
> On 25/08/2016 3:08 AM, Rich Schwerdtfeger wrote:
>
> Jamie,
>
>
>
> The point is we want ALL the landmarks to be treated the same way for
> ATVs. So, first we determine that it is a landmark. Then we go to xml-roles
> to determine the type of landmark.
>
>
>
> Otherwise, we need a special case for a form. That is what we are trying
> to avoid. For these reasons ATK/ATSPI created a landmark role first.
>
>
>
> The HTML the form element now uses the ARIA mappings for the form role.
> See "Use WAI-ARIA mapping” under the form element. This is for all
> platforms.
>
>
>
> https://rawgit.com/w3c/aria/master/html-aam/html-aam.html
>
>
>
> We do understand that non-browser applications may still use the older
> Form role mapping as would older browser versions. It is for these reasons
> that our definition of deprecation is that it has not gone a way but rather
> it is going to this new preferred mapping.
>
>
>
> Best,
>
>
>
> Rich
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> Rich Schwerdtfeger
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 23, 2016, at 7:35 PM, James Teh <jamie@nvaccess.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> If you believe that role="form" has no semantic value other than being a
> landmark, then let's go ahead and map it to IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK. On the other
> hand, the HTML form tag *does* have semantic value other than being a
> landmark, so I'd argue it should be IA2_ROLE_FORM.
>
>
>
> On 24/08/2016 5:22 AM, Rich Schwerdtfeger wrote:
>
> We are not asking that IA2_ROLE_FORM be deprecated altogether. Even with
> ARIA we have some attributes that re deprecated but that is meant so that
> there will be a replacement solution. An example is the drag and drop aria
> properties. For ARIA browser conformance testing to exit Candidate
> Recommendation we will be testing for IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK on form roles.
>
>
>
> Rich Schwerdtfeger
>
>
>
>
>
>
>
> On Aug 18, 2016, at 9:56 PM, James Teh <jamie@nvaccess.org> wrote:
>
>
>
> On 11/08/2016 2:58 AM, Alexander Surkov wrote:
>
> 1) adding IA2_ROLE_LANDMARK and
>
> Yes.
>
>
> 2) deprecating IA2_ROLE_FORM?
>
> I'd argue that there is more semantic value in a "form" than just the fact
> that it is a landmark. This probably doesn't apply to ARIA (at least for
> now), since role="form" is defined as only a landmark. However, I'd argue
> it does apply to the HTML form tag. So, I'm fine t not use IA2_ROLE_FORM
> for ARIA role="form", but I'm dubious about deprecating it altogether,
> including for the HTML form tag.
> Jamie
>
> --
> James Teh
> Executive Director, NV Access Limited
> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
> www.nvaccess.org
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
> Twitter: @NVAccess
> SIP: jamie@nvaccess.org
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> James Teh
>
> Executive Director, NV Access Limited
>
> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
>
> www.nvaccess.org
>
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>
> Twitter: @NVAccess
>
> SIP: jamie@nvaccess.org
>
>
>
>
>
> --
>
> James Teh
>
> Executive Director, NV Access Limited
>
> Ph +61 7 3149 3306
>
> www.nvaccess.org
>
> Facebook: http://www.facebook.com/NVAccess
>
> Twitter: @NVAccess
>
> SIP: jamie@nvaccess.org
>
>